# What's in all the empty space in an atom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125 "2002-11-10T10:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/1 "2002-11-10T10:32:26Z")
I’m thinking, more or less specifically, of the space that makes up the electron “cloud” (the part that doesn’t actually have electrons it in at any given moment) and between the cloud and the nucleus (or is there no space between the cloud and the nuclues? I forget). I mean it’s obviously not air, so what is it. Vacuum? Subatomic particles, or something else altogether? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/2 "2002-11-10T10:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KKBattousai \* > \*\*I mean it’s obviously not air, so what is it. Vacuum? Subatomic particles, or something else altogether? \*\* It’s, um, **space** … ---
**Author:** ![Nishroch\_Order](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Nishroch\_Order](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nishroch_Order)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/3 "2002-11-10T11:06:36Z")
um…neutrinos and photons here there everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/4 "2002-11-10T12:11:09Z")
It is empty space. There are exotic particles thought to be running around (like gluons, the particles supposed to mediate gravitation by flying to and fro), but mostly it’s empty. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/5 "2002-11-10T17:44:30Z")
> [@](#): > > and between the cloud and the nucleus (or is there no space between the cloud and the nuclues? I forget). Do you mean nodal boundaries? Like the images you see where the cloud looks like a dumbell? Well, the places where there is no cloud in this case is also empty. In some cases, like "s"orbital electrons, the cloud of probablity includes the nucleus, in other cases, like "p"electrons, the electrons can be anywhere in a dumbell shaped pattern around the nucleus (in each plane), but never AT the nucleus. It’s one of those particle-in-a-box mysteries: how can the electron be on either side without ever going through the space in between? Wacky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/6 "2002-11-10T17:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > and between the cloud and the nucleus (or is there no space between the cloud and the nuclues? I forget). Do you mean nodal boundaries? Like the images you see where the cloud looks like a dumbell? Well, the places where there is no cloud in this case is also empty. In some cases, like "s"orbital electrons, the cloud of probablity includes the nucleus, in other cases, like "p"electrons, the electrons can be anywhere in a dumbell shaped pattern around the nucleus (in each plane), but never AT the nucleus. It’s one of those particle-in-a-box mysteries: how can the electron be on either side without ever going through the space in between? Wacky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/7 "2002-11-10T18:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > and between the cloud and the nucleus (or is there no space between the cloud and the nuclues? I forget). Do you mean nodal boundaries? Like the images you see where the cloud looks like a dumbell? Well, the places where there is no cloud in this case is also empty. In some cases, like "s"orbital electrons, the cloud of probablity includes the nucleus, in other cases, like "p"electrons, the electrons can be anywhere in a dumbell shaped pattern around the nucleus (in each plane), but never AT the nucleus. It’s one of those particle-in-a-box mysteries: how can the electron be on either side without ever going through the space in between? Wacky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/8 "2002-11-10T18:14:43Z")
Quantum theory says that virtual particles are being created for extremely tiny amounts of time (and then annihilating one another) everywhere. I believe this is true even in the spaces inside of atoms. If so, there is no empty space anywhere or anywhen. ---
**Author:** ![captain\_snort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8edcca/32.png) [@captain\_snort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/captain_snort)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/9 "2002-11-10T19:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > \*\*Quantum theory says that virtual particles are being created for extremely tiny amounts of time (and then annihilating one another) everywhere. I believe this is true even in the spaces inside of atoms. If so, there is no empty space anywhere or anywhen. \*\* But surely as the electron field is probability based, who is to say what the outer edges are, it is perfecty acceptable for say an electron somewhere near jupiter to be associated with one of the atoms that makes up the return key on my keyboard. what fill that space? well, a shitload, or not a lot depending on your point of view ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/10 "2002-11-10T21:00:52Z")
Can’t you drive through that empty space in a jet car using an oscillation overthruster? ---
**Author:** ![Emilio\_Lizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Emilio\_Lizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emilio_Lizardo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/11 "2002-11-10T22:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Can’t you drive through that empty space in a jet car using an oscillation overthruster? You can try, monkey boy, but it’s very dangerous in there! ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/12 "2002-11-10T22:53:01Z")
There’s even more space (lots more) between atoms. Isn’t it the same type of space that the OP is referring to inside the atom? ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/13 "2002-11-10T22:58:23Z")
There’s even more space (lots more) between atoms. Isn’t it the same type of space that the OP is referring to inside the atom? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/14 "2002-11-11T00:22:52Z")
When I taught this material in general chemistry some time back, I always liked to ask the question posed in the thread title of my students. It never ceased to amaze me how many of them uncritically responded “air.” In an effort to get them to actually think, I would respond: “So you’re saying that in the space between the electron and the proton in a hydrogen atom, there are nitrogen and oxygen molecules?!” (Then there was the student who answered back, completely seriously, “No, in a hydrogen atom, the space is filled with hydrogen gas.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/15 "2002-11-11T01:34:47Z")
[http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae222.cfm](http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae222.cfm) \*"The empty space between the atomic cloud of an atom and its nucleus is just that: empty space, or vacuum. That’s the simple answer, but there are a few subtleties:… 1. Sub-atomic particles such as electrons, protons and neutrons need to be treated as quantum objects. Thus they have a wavefunction which can be _thought of_ as the ‘spread’ in the particle’s location… 2. The electrons and the protons/neutrons are constantly interacting, either electromagnetically or through the weak force. In quantum field theory we would say that these particles are constantly exchanging photons (in the case of electromagnetism) or heavy gauge bosons (in the case of the weak force). Thus you might say that the otherwise ‘empty’ space between the electrons and nucleus is ‘filled’ with these quanta carrying forces. Despite these two quantum-mechanical subtleties, it’s still correct to say that the space between the electrons and nucleus in atoms is truly empty space…"\* ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/16 "2002-11-11T01:41:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > \*\*It is empty space. There are exotic particles thought to be running around (like gluons, the particles supposed to mediate gravitation by flying to and fro), but mostly it’s empty. \*\* Gravitons are the theoretical vectors for gravity. Gluons are the vector for the strong force: the force that holds all those protons together in the nucleus (normally, like charges repel each other). ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/17 "2002-11-11T01:48:22Z")
A slight addition. All those particles that are being exchanged back and forth are _virtual_ particles which can never be detected and in fact are at most the result of how the terms of a perturbation expansion appear on a Feynman diagram. In other words they aren’t really real. Also the wavefunction of quantum particles is likewise not considered to be real. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/18 "2002-11-11T01:56:31Z")
These “spaces” are not proper 3D spaces as we understand them at all. This “space” is filled with everything and nothing at the same time. They are filled with smears of probability. > [@](#): > > The subatomic world, where particles are not solid objects so much as smears of probability, may seem counterintuitive, even illogical. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/19 "2002-11-11T01:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barbitu8 \* > \*\*Gravitons are the theoretical vectors for gravity. Gluons are the vector for the strong force: the force that holds all those protons together in the nucleus (normally, like charges repel each other). \*\* Slight addition. Gluons are the mediating particles for the strong color force between quarks. (For muster Mark - Joyce) Residual strong interactions between nucleons are mediatied by pions. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125/20 "2002-11-11T03:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ring \* > \*\*Residual strong interactions between nucleons are mediatied by pions. \*\* From my rudimentary knowledge of elementary particles, I thought the pion, which is a pi meson, is one of the elementary particles belonging to the boson class: no spin. (It belongs to the no spin zone. :)) IIRC, it was first noted in cosmic rays and has a very short life. So, please edify me with some elucidation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-in-all-the-empty-space-in-an-atom/136125.md?page=2)