# What's mine is not yours! How far can you enforce that? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 7, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658 "2019-03-07T00:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/61 "2019-03-09T00:07:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It’s amazing that someone with the chip on his shoulder and anger issues as the father managed to stay out of prison long enough to have a wife and kids. Well, it somehow turns out that the guy who absolutely positively cannot control his angry violent outbursts against his wife and children, somehow finds it very easy not to scream at and attack his boss, his neighbor, or the cops. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/62 "2019-03-09T00:32:20Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > My friends, my countryman, my co-workers, my teammates, my family, my fellow Dopers…which of you do I own? Uh, strictly speaking, you don’t own a damn thing; it’s still Leonardo DiCaprio’s world, and you’re just living in it. No, he called it. He _called_ it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/63 "2019-03-09T00:38:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > My good man, it depends on audience and context. As you noted there are people who aren’t interested in the subtle distinctions of whether you legally own the thing you’re talking about - ownership as a concept actually expands to include things that you have charge of. For example I go home every day to my apartment - but legally speaking I don’t actually own the residence. And yet the renting office themselves refer to the apartment as being mine, because I have charge of it. The only case where this would become inaccurate is if somebody came specifically asking about _legal_ ownership. > > In the situation in the OP, I don’t think that the horses were concerned about that distinction. > > Also I’ve now called you “my good man” twice, and if I say it a third time you officially become my property as a slave for life. You can say that because the apartment is “yours.” You have paid for the exclusive use and possession of it for a certain period of time and during that time it is yours. A better analogy would be if you let me sleep on your couch for a few days after my wife throws me out and I start calling it “my” apartment, again, not in response to any inquiry about ownership. I just say it for no reason like Zeke did. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/64 "2019-03-09T00:47:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You can say that because the apartment is “yours.” You have paid for the exclusive use and possession of it for a certain period of time and during that time it is yours. > > A better analogy would be if you let me sleep on your couch for a few days after my wife throws me out and I start calling it “my” apartment, again, not in response to any inquiry about ownership. I just say it for no reason like Zeke did. Yeah - kind of not seeing the problem. Here’s another, even better analogy: Jake: Let’s go get something to eat. Zeke: Damn, I forgot my coat. Jake: Here, borrow one of mine. Let’s go. Later… Zeke: Whoops, forgot my coat. Let me go get it. Jake: I KILL YOU! (stab stab stab stab) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/65 "2019-03-09T01:23:48Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Yeah - kind of not seeing the problem. > > Here’s another, even better analogy: > > Jake: Let’s go get something to eat. > Zeke: Damn, I forgot my coat. > Jake: Here, borrow one of mine. Let’s go. > > Later… > > Zeke: Whoops, forgot my coat. Let me go get it. > Jake: I KILL YOU! (stab stab stab stab) I’m not saying that killing or stabbing or getting angry is the appropriate response. I am saying that in many circumstances the original giver can rightfully get the impression that the giftee believes that the property is now his own. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/66 "2019-03-09T01:29:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m not saying that killing or stabbing or getting angry is the appropriate response. I am saying that in many circumstances the original giver can rightfully get the impression that the giftee believes that the property is now his own. And I disagree that we’ve discussed even one of those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/67 "2019-03-09T02:45:18Z")
One thing I’m seeing here which seems likely why the OPs father presented the story as he did; Zeke’s specific use of “8” is more important than “my”. He could have replaced “my” with a group pronoun “you” and i believe the intended moral would be the same. In this light the phrase was not uttered for no reason. He’s **boasting** his advantage, after all, Jake only gets to use 7 horses…presumably now, so will Zeke. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/68 "2019-03-09T02:54:13Z")
We also seem to be erroneously using the modern sense of killing an animal as equating to some murderous act. In context it would be more like; Jake and Zeke live I a country where no welfare exists and your children may starve to death if you don’t make money. Jake has a garbage collection company with seven trucks. He collects on Thursday so he loans the fleet to Zeke on Saturdays and Zeke brags that he’s raking in a ton of money with 8 trucks, so Jake sugars the tank of Zeke’s truck. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/69 "2019-03-09T07:05:20Z")
I got curious to see what the author intended. Found it online > [@Hans Christian Andersen](#): > > Through the whole week, Little Claus was obliged to plough for Great Claus, and lend him his one horse; and once a week, on a Sunday, Great Claus lent him all his four horses. Then how Little Claus would smack his whip over all five horses, they were as good as his own on that one day. The sun shone brightly, and the church bells were ringing merrily as the people passed by, dressed in their best clothes, with their prayer-books under their arms. They were going to hear the clergyman preach. They looked at Little Claus ploughing with his five horses, and he was so proud that he smacked his whip, and said, “Gee-up, my five horses.” > > “You must not say that,” said Big Claus; “for only one of them belongs to you.” But Little Claus soon forgot what he ought to say, and when any one passed he would call out, “Gee-up, my five horses!” > > “Now I must beg you not to say that again,” said Big Claus; “for if you do, I shall hit your horse on the head, so that he will drop dead on the spot, and there will be an end of him.” > > “I promise you I will not say it any more,” said the other; but as soon as people came by, nodding to him, and wishing him “Good day,” he became so pleased, and thought how grand it looked to have five horses ploughing in his field, that he cried out again, “Gee-up, all my horses!” > > “I’ll gee-up your horses for you,” said Big Claus; and seizing a hammer, he struck the one horse of Little Claus on the head, and he fell dead instantly. Interesting. This also changes it from what I would have assumed to be a spontaneous act of rage to a deliberate punishment. I agree with the poster who pointed out that killing an animal would not have been that big of a deal at the time. It was destroying livelihood which was the point, and the insanity of the punishment. I’ve been asking my various students this week about this. The younger the student, the less certain the response. My middle students today had put a much higher degree of blame on Zeke than my high school students yesterday. All the groups felt Jakes’s actions were worse, but only a few students labeled them as completely unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/70 "2019-03-09T09:19:32Z")
Assuming this isn’t some cheap wordplay, the rich brother. Killing someone’s animal because they said something objectionable is not acceptable in any circumstance. I don’t see it as much different than me killing your dog because you called my wife a bitch. Now, are you justified in killing 77 people because someone killed your dog, like John Wick? Yeah, probably not then either. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/71 "2019-03-09T16:50:42Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > As for the backstory, it’s almost as if **TokyoBayer** is wondering after all these years if it’s his fault that his dad beat him. I really hope you know that it’s _not_. Thank you. I do know that. However, there are so many problems with growing up in an abusive home. One is that you simply don’t know what normal adults do and think and the craziness is so ingrained that it takes longer to learn lessons from life. For some things, it took having my own children to really appreciate how fucked up my father was. My daughter is 10, and about the same age as my sisters were when my father started to molest them. Having my own daughter makes it that much more real on an emotionally level of how horrible my father’s actions were. I was 12 when my father told me in detail about how he molested them, and implied that they were in the wrong. As a child, you can’t process that. Your mind just refuses to think things through. I can remember the exact words my father used to describe his sexual assaults on them, I can remember the tone of voice he had when he was talking to me and his facial expressions. But I was completely numb, in shock. It’s apparently disassociation, and the mind just refuses to work. It was like that with this story. Even at that age, in my gut I knew that Jake was terribly wrong, but once my father declared that Jake was in the right, my 12-year-old self would not be able to resolve that conflict or it would have realized that I was living with a monster and it would be too much. Or so the therapist explains. Reading and listening to people discuss this, it just drives home the point that I was being raised by a couple of children, and my father was emotionally on a similar level to my second-grade son – if that. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/72 "2019-03-10T02:28:59Z")
As it turns out , the full story has nothing to do with the context we examine it in. Little claus is just a trickster, very remeniscant of cunning fox fables. [http://hca.gilead.org.il/li\_claus.html](http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_claus.html) I think there are some perspectives lost on the modern reader, the choice to give them both the same name seems to indicate little claus was sort of attempting identity theft to begin with, however as far as i can work out this story has been criticized from the beginning for a lack of any clear moral. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/73 "2019-03-10T03:21:22Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Because of his out of control violence, it was less walking on eggshells as trying to get through a mine field. You never knew what was going to set him off, and if the violence was going to reach the ultimate level. It wasn’t just us as kids who were terrified, my mother was afraid he would kill us. **I can only guess at what sort of things were going on in her mind as to why she never left him permanently.** [Bolding added] That leaving with you would be seen as equal to trying to take ownership. Clearly he saw himself as your owner. (But of course, you know that.) My deep sympathies to your siblings and mother; profound admiration for surviving, and finding happiness and positive purpose. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/74 "2019-03-11T13:31:35Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > For some things, it took having my own children to really appreciate how fucked up my father was. My daughter is 10, and about the same age as my sisters were when my father started to molest them. Having my own daughter makes it that much more real on an emotionally level of how horrible my father’s actions were. > > I was 12 when my father told me in detail about how he molested them, and implied that they were in the wrong. Good god! Reading the thread, up to now I was thinking your father was a psychotic asshole. After all, there are some Christians who not only take delight in the fact that they’re going to heaven while the rest of us will burn forever in the fires of hell, but are looking forward to the fact that they’ll be in ringside seats looking down into the pit. There is no excuse for molesting a child, Full Stop, even if (_especially_ if) the child is your own. Even more worrisome is the fact that he was molesting them for some transgression demonstrates he regarded them as less ‘worthy’ than him, a male. After all, he did not molest you, did he? The cherry on top is that he told you, a twelve-year old boy, _in detail_ how he violated your sisters. I would guess he was trying to groom you into believing his own depraved philosophy. Frankly, how I would process this about my own father is beyond my comprehension. That you are or were seeing a therapist is a good idea. If it were me I would at the least not let my children visit him unsupervised. More likely I would cut off contact all together for fear he would contaminate their minds, never mind anything physical he might try. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658/75 "2019-03-11T14:53:15Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > There is no excuse for molesting a child, Full Stop, even if (_especially_ if) the child is your own. Even more worrisome is the fact that he was molesting them for some transgression demonstrates he regarded them as less ‘worthy’ than him, a male. After all, he did not molest you, did he? The cherry on top is that he told you, a twelve-year old boy, _in detail_ how he violated your sisters. I would guess he was trying to groom you into believing his own depraved philosophy. > > Frankly, how I would process this about my own father is beyond my comprehension. That you are or were seeing a therapist is a good idea. If it were me I would at the least not let my children visit him unsupervised. More likely I would cut off contact all together for fear he would contaminate their minds, never mind anything physical he might try. Yeah, it was really sick. My sister went to the bishop (the lay leader of the local congregation) to report him. My father was actually the second counselor to the bishop at the time, so he was also in the lay leadership. After my sister told on him, my father was removed from that position. He told me that he saw from the way she was walking at church that day, that something was different. His tone of voice and words strongly implied she was in the wrong for turning him in. He told my sisters that he hadn’t been nice to them at night because they weren’t nice to him during the day. Fun stuff! He told me that girls like to have their private parts touched. That was implied as the reason he was doing it, because they liked it. He had a very, very weak comment that the bishop said he couldn’t do that, but he said it without conviction. No apparent remorse. In Mormonism, sexual sins are second only to murder. Yet, the seriousness of his transgressions was never addressed, of course. I can only remember his tirades about pride. He never molested me, but the family environment was such that I didn’t tell anyone when my older brother raped me. Sometime after that, my mother asked if my brother had ever done anything to me, but it was clear from how she asked the question and her body language that she absolutely did not want to know. I found out later he had raped a number of other boys, as well as our younger brother. My father handled it, by that I mean he didn’t do anything about it. My father died 25 years ago, so I never had to worry about the kids meeting him. I’ve told them that he was always angry and such, but always been age appropriate for them. I cut off contact with my brother as well. He wouldn’t own his actions and wouldn’t or couldn’t apologize to me. Even if he were to apologize, I would never let him near my children. And yes, I do see a therapist. Fortunately, I found one who specializes in early childhood trauma. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-mine-is-not-yours-how-far-can-you-enforce-that/830658.md?page=3)