# Whats more intelligent an American Crow, a Common Raven, or a Scrub Jay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 18, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301 "2006-05-18T19:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/1 "2006-05-18T19:09:21Z")
Just curious. What is the smartest bird BTW? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/2 "2006-05-18T19:19:45Z")
Ravens will form and use tools. They can also[bring down a country by flying away](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Raven#Ravens_in_European_myth_and_legend). ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/3 "2006-05-18T22:31:37Z")
Odd (or perhaps not a coincidence) that you should mention the scrub jay, in light of what I’d just read today [here.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060518/ap_on_sc/plan_ahead_1) (at the bottom, past all the ape stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/4 "2006-05-19T18:47:53Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/5 "2006-05-19T19:06:05Z")
Crows also use tools: [http://users.ox.ac.uk/~kgroup/tools/tools\_main.shtml](http://users.ox.ac.uk/~kgroup/tools/tools_main.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/6 "2006-05-19T19:28:58Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Ravens will form and use tools. They can also[bring down a country by flying away](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Raven#Ravens_in_European_myth_and_legend). But this can’t happen as long as they keep clipping their wings (which is a bit of a cheat). I’d also vouch for crows/ravens (they’re both in the same family) as being the smartest birds. I think it might’ve been some Doper who said this but when’s the last time you saw a dead crow or raven in the middle of the road? They certainly seem intelligent enough to avoid becoming roadkill. Birds like parrots or mynas that can learn and mimic speech would also probably rank highly. Just out of curiosity but are owls also considered to be “smart” birds? ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/7 "2006-05-19T19:53:06Z")
I have read of ravens up North who will unzip the supply pouches on snowmobiles and steal food. They even learned how to “unzip” velcro! ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/8 "2006-05-19T20:28:20Z")
Can someone confirm or deny the story that I have long “known” about crows? I have heard that if you take two female crows and teach only one of them a maze, then when they each have a baby the one with the mother who knew the maze before will know the maze better and be able to get through it faster than the baby whose mother did not know the maze. Is that possible? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/9 "2006-05-19T20:37:38Z")
I have a hard time picturing how you get a bird to navigate a maze. But besides that…I doubt that knowledge of the maze could be passed on; isn’t that some bogus discredited evolutionary theory (Lamarck?). But the moral of this story may just be that smart mothers have smart children; ie, the ability to learn mazes quickly may be hereditary. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/10 "2006-05-19T22:03:38Z")
Ravens are very, very smart; I’ve seen pictures of the snowmobile/velcro thing. I saw a study where they hung a piece of chees at the end of a string abpout a foot below a bird perch. Crows were smart enough to pull the string up with one foot, but still couldn’t reach the cheese. Ravens figured out they could get the cheese if they pulled the string up with one foot, stepped on it with the other, pulled it up, stepped on it, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/11 "2006-05-19T22:11:45Z")
One of the problems with your question is (of course) how you measure intellignece. Because there are debates about that, there are therefore debates about the answer. Crows and ravens are very smart (I’m not personally familiar with scrub jays, but am curious to know why you included them). So this is probably not helpful at all, really. CAW, CAW, CAW! ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/12 "2006-05-19T22:14:05Z")
I’m starting to lose my ability to type. I need to hire a crow, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/13 "2006-05-20T01:31:56Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > … > Just out of curiosity but are owls also considered to be “smart” birds? I’ve never heard anything to suggest that owls are smarter than other predatory birds like, say, hawks or eagles. I think owls come by their reputation for intelligence mostly because of their looks-they look like us (both eyes on the front of their heads, unlike other birds) therefore they MUST be smart, right? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/14 "2006-05-20T01:55:56Z")
Weren’t owls also associated with Athena (the goddess, not the poster)? I’m not sure how much that would have had an effect, though. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/15 "2006-05-20T02:54:33Z")
I was told by a national park ranger that the only difference between crows and ravens was that ravens had pinion feathers and crows didn’t. Is this true or is it that only a matter of a pinion? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/16 "2006-05-20T08:55:45Z")
> [@Snakescatlady](#): > > I have read of ravens up North who will unzip the supply pouches on snowmobiles and steal food. They even learned how to “unzip” velcro! I’ve watched crows unzip bycycle and lunch bags to steal food. They are notorious for it at the Shark Valley part of the Everglades. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/17 "2006-05-20T13:13:14Z")
Owls aren’t particularly known for their intelligence, but as our friend the giggling bunny mentioned, they are associated with wisdom since both their eyes look forward. Yes, owls are associated with Athena. Crows/ravens/pinion feathers: don’t know. I _do_ know that one way to tell crows from ravens in flight is that one has separate feathers at the ends of their wings, and the other doesn’t…but I don’t remember which one is which, so this isn’t very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/18 "2006-05-20T14:38:12Z")
> [@Dijon Warlock](#): > > … I _do_ know that one way to tell crows from ravens in flight is that one has separate feathers at the ends of their wings, and the other doesn’t…but I don’t remember which one is which, so this isn’t very helpful. I usually go with the shape of the tail if the bird is in flight. Crows’ tails are squared off at the end, ravens’ tails end in a sort of wedge. You can usually tell just by size, too. We have large crows around here but when I go to, say, New Hampshire’s White Mountains and happen to see a raven there isn’t any doubt, they are MUCH larger. Their wings look different as they fly because they are much longer than a crow’s wings. Ravens will soar, crows pretty much never do. Also ravens are more solitary, crows are almost always seen with other crows. The voices are different too: crows can make a lot of different sounds but I’ve never yet heard one make a sound like the distinctive guttural croak of a raven. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/19 "2006-05-20T17:47:34Z")
Folks in French Lick will tell you with no hesitation that the smartest Bird is Larry. ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301/20 "2006-05-22T02:28:42Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Ravens are very, very smart; I’ve seen pictures of the snowmobile/velcro thing. I saw a study where they hung a piece of chees at the end of a string abpout a foot below a bird perch. Crows were smart enough to pull the string up with one foot, but still couldn’t reach the cheese. Ravens figured out they could get the cheese if they pulled the string up with one foot, stepped on it with the other, pulled it up, stepped on it, etc. The bait-on-a-string study was cited in a National Geographic article in January of (I think) 2000, or maybe 2001. January I’m sure of. I’ve mentioned it before. The author also mentioned seeing a nice group trick. He found a golden eagle eating a deer carcass, when a flock of ravens showed up. The eagle threatened vigorously when the ravens got too close, so they backed off and hung around at one side of the clearing. The eagle kept an eye on them as he ate, and didn’t notice as one raven flew off and circled around behind him. That raven sneaked up, pulled the eagle’s tail, and dived for the woods where he could move faster than the eagle. As soon as the deer was unoccupied, the other ravens rushed in and chowed down until the eagle came back. IIRC, they did the same several times in a row. Now that’s smart! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-more-intelligent-an-american-crow-a-common-raven-or-a-scrub-jay/357301.md?page=2)