# What's Next Anglicans? Female circumcision? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562 "2004-11-02T15:58:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/1 "2004-11-02T15:58:55Z")
Angered by the Episcopal Church’s move to accept homosexuals as fellow Christians, the Anglican Bishops of Africa have moved to stop sending their clergy to train in the West. [From the Advocate](http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=14232&sd=11/02/04) > [@](#): > > Bishops also were studying creation of a separate “African” theology rejecting gay clergy and same-sex marriages, they said. > > [snip] > > “We need well-resourced, highly rated, and contextually relevant theological institutions that can engage intelligently with our peculiar challenges from an African perspective,” the bishops said in a closing statement. I wonder if that African perspective will include those other ideas from African custom such as femail genital mutilation and widespread genocide. Nice to see that the Bishops of Dallas and other parts of the country have chosen to associate with their fellow troglodytes in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/2 "2004-11-02T16:29:34Z")
I’d bitch about this, if it weren’t for the fact that our own rector and visiting Bishop Barbara Harris said **exactly** the same thing last week. (Are you three on a newsgroup I don’t belong to? ;)) I’ve seriously considered sending the appropriate Primates the Scripture quote about motes and beams in eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/3 "2004-11-02T17:08:28Z")
These are the **African** Anglican bishops. Please don’t vilify all Anglicans by one group’s actions. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/4 "2004-11-02T17:31:06Z")
Wow, a strawman before the first comma, and two of our progressive posters playing with racial stereotpyes for fun. Impressive. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/5 "2004-11-02T17:35:46Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > … African custom such as femail genital mutilation and widespread genocide. > [@Kythereia](#): > > These are the African Anglican bishops. > Please don’t vilify all Anglicans by one group’s actions. Likewise, please don’t vilify all Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/6 "2004-11-02T17:38:18Z")
If you are accusing **Polycarp** of racial stereotyping for using the word “primate” in relation to African Anglicans, then you owe him an apology. In the Anglican church, a “primate” is a presiding bishop. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/7 "2004-11-02T17:42:04Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > If you are accusing **Polycarp** of racial stereotyping for using the word “primate” in relation to African Anglicans, then you owe him an apology. In the Anglican church, a “primate” is a presiding bishop. I believe he’s also calling out **Homebrew** for “troglodytes”. The only person in this thread playing with racial stereotypes is you, **furt**. There are accepted usages of those words that have nothing to do with race, and I cannot believe that anyone who’s been around here longer than a month or two would believe that either **Polycarp** or **Homebrew** would be using them in other than those accepted usages. Your post was a foul blow and beneath even your standards. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/8 "2004-11-02T17:45:44Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Wow, a strawman before the first comma, and two of our progressive posters playing with racial stereotpyes for fun. Me, I’m not playing with racial stereotypes. Several of the bishops and archbishops who have been most outspoken about Gene Robinson and the blessing of gay marriages have been from countries which practice genital mutilation of females. They happen to be Africans of what’s traditionally classified as “black” in racial breakdowns. Another such outspoken person is from Singapore, and is not black; I don’t know what his ethnic background is, offhand. There are African Anglican leaders who hold a quite different view, and I have no interest in criticizing them. And I might point out that the two people I quoted as backing **Homebrew** ’s OP were my rector (a married woman of Scandinavian descent whose assistant is her husband) and [the Rt. Rev. Barbara Harris](http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/1196/Barbara_Harris_a_spiritual_first). BTW, I think **Homebrew** ’s first clause is **right on the mark** – that is **exactly** what they are doing, and it’s sanctimonious bullshit IMO (and in that of much of my church). Would you care to rethink your comment? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/9 "2004-11-02T17:49:23Z")
Doesn’t > [@](#): > > other ideas from African custom such as femail genital mutilation and widespread genocide count as a racial stereotype? Okay, okay, Africans aren’t a race. But I thought that here at the Dope, we frown upon tarnishing large groups of people with our judgements upon the acts of a few. (I note that neither FGM nor genocide was invented by “Africans,” nor are they practiced by the huge majority of them.) BTW, what’s “African custom”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/10 "2004-11-02T18:41:08Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Doesn’t > > count as a racial stereotype? Okay, okay, Africans aren’t a race. > > But I thought that here at the Dope, we frown upon tarnishing large groups of people with our judgements upon the acts of a few. I don’t see anything **Homebrew** posted as tarnishing all Africans. Or all Anglicans. Nor even all African Anglicans. He’s tarnishing the leadership of the African Anglican church, based on their actions and statements. > [@](#): > > (I note that neither FGM nor genocide was invented by “Africans,” nor are they practiced by the huge majority of them.) > > BTW, what’s “African custom”? I would hazard a guess that it’s any custom practiced in Africa, or a portion thereof. FGM is, indeed, a custom practiced in parts of Africa, making it an “African custom,” although no one has suggested that it is either unique or pandemic to Africa. I wouldn’t really call genocide a “custom,” but I suspect that was snark on **Homebrew** ’s behalf. And, apparently, homophobia is one more such custom, at least according to the African Anglican church leadership. Since they think one disgusting “custom” is an important and integral part of thier religion, it seems that asking if other disgusting “customs” from the region are also important and integral parts of their religion is absolutely fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/11 "2004-11-02T18:42:18Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > BTW, what’s “African custom”? I’d say an African custom is a custom widespread in Africa. According to [Amensty International](http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a3) > [@](#): > > Geographical distribution of female genital mutilation > An estimated 135 million of the world’s girls and women have undergone genital mutilation, and two million girls a year are at risk of mutilation - approximately 6,000 per day. It is practised extensively in Africa and is common in some countries in the Middle East. It also occurs, mainly among immigrant communities, in parts of Asia and the Pacific, North and Latin America and Europe. > > FGM is reportedly practised in more than 28 African countries (see FGM in Africa: Information by Country (ACT 77/07/97)). There are no figures to indicate how common FGM is in Asia. It has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Malaysia, although very little is known about the practice in these countries. In India, a small Muslim sect, the Daudi Bohra, practise clitoridectomy. It’s not a racial stereotype, it’s a cultural condemnation. In Nigeria, for instance, 50% of women and girls are mutilated. In Egypt and Ethiopia, more than 90% of women and girls suffer this barbaric act. Yet these are the nations most up in arms about the election of Bishop Robinson in the United States. A man is known by the company he keeps. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/12 "2004-11-02T18:56:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Wow, a strawman before the first comma, … Are you daft? The first clause is the stated reason for the strife. If you don’t believe it, read the [Primate of All Nigeria Peter Akinola’s comments on the Windsor Report](http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/articles/39/00/acns3902.cfm). > [@](#): > > ACNS 3902 | ACO | 20 OCTOBER 2004 > > Statement on the Windsor Report 2004 from the Primate of All Nigeria > > I welcome the sincerity and hard work of those who have prepared ‘The Windsor Report 2004’. After an initial reading it is clear to me that the report falls far short of the prescription needed for this current crisis. It fails to confront the reality that a small, economically privileged group of people has sought to subvert the Christian faith and impose their new and false doctrine on the wider community of faithful believers. We have watched in sadness as sisters and brothers who have sought to maintain their allegiance to the “faith once delivered to the saints” have been marginalized and persecuted for their faith. We have been filled with grief as we have witnessed the decline of the North American Church that was once filled with missionary zeal and yet now seems determined to bury itself in a deadly embrace with the spirit of the age. Instead of a clear call for repentance we have been offered warm words of sentimentality for those who have shown no godly sorrow for their actions and harsh words of condemnation for those who have reached out a helping hand to friends in need of pastoral and spiritual care. > > Why, throughout the document, is there such a marked contrast between the language used against those who are subverting the faith and that used against those of us, from the Global South, who are trying to bring the church back to the Bible? Where are the expressions of deep concern for the men and women whose witness is jeopardized and whose lives are at risk because of the actions of ECUSA [Episcopal Church of the United States of America]? Where are the words of “deep regret” for the impact of ECUSA’s actions upon the Global South and our missionary efforts? Where is the language of rebuke for those who are promoting sexual sins as holy and acceptable behaviour? The imbalance is bewildering. It is wrong to use equal language for unequal actions. Fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/13 "2004-11-02T19:22:53Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’d bitch about this, if it weren’t for the fact that our own rector and visiting Bishop Barbara Harris said **exactly** the same thing last week. (Are you three on a newsgroup I don’t belong to? ;)) > > I’ve seriously considered sending the appropriate Primates the Scripture quote about motes and beams in eyes. The Rector at St Mark’s is coming out on the side of the African Bishops? Please tell me I’ve misunderstood. _grumble_grumbe\* Gonna have to find a different new church if we move back to Raleigh. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/14 "2004-11-02T19:27:11Z")
Amazingly, several of the schismatic parishes disapproving in the Diocese of New Westminster in British Columbia who disagree with the diocese’s stance in favour of same-sex marriage have chosen to place themselves under the authority of the… Anglican Church of Rwanda. _boggles_ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/15 "2004-11-02T19:33:39Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > The Rector at St Mark’s is coming out on the side of the African Bishops? > > Please tell me I’ve misunderstood. > _grumble_grumbe\* Gonna have to find a different new church if we move back to Raleigh. No, it’s my incompetence at English style to blame. Lorraine and Bishop Harris said the same things as **Homebrew** , not as the African bishops. Yeesh! Trust me to bollix up my syntax to sound like I’m saying the reverse of what I mean! :o ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/16 "2004-11-02T19:48:35Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Lorraine and Bishop Harris said the same things as **Homebrew** , not as the African bishops. I knew I had to have been mistaken. The one time I had actually met Lorraine, she seemed to approve of the fact I grew up attending Pullen. > [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Amazingly, several of the schismatic parishes disapproving in the Diocese of New Westminster in British Columbia who disagree with the diocese’s stance in favour of same-sex marriage have chosen to place themselves under the authority of the… Anglican Church of Rwanda. This has made me wonder what happens to the church facilities when churches do this. Are the parishoners disappointed to find out the buildings are acually owned by the local Diocese, and they can no longer meet there? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/17 "2004-11-02T19:58:36Z")
Sorry for the continuing hijack. > [@homebrew](#): > > I’d say an African custom is a custom widespread in Africa. I disagree with this characterization on two parts. First, it’s not “widespread.” Your cite says it happens in 28 African countries, which is fewer than half of all of them. And, while we’re at it, can I have a cite for this? > [@Homebrew](#): > > In Nigeria, for instance, 50% of women and girls are mutilated. In Egypt and Ethiopia, more than 90% of women and girls suffer this barbaric act. Yet these are the nations most up in arms about the election of Bishop Robinson in the United States. Second, your cite also says that it happens in the Middle East and in immigrant communities around the world, so to describe it as “African” is somewhat misleading. Finally: to call something an “African custom” sounds, to my ears, like calling something (and I hate to use this example, but please bear with me) a “homosexual custom.” Each of these uses implies some sort of homogeneity among Africans or among homosexuals. Africa is a massive country, with huge amounts of cultural diversity. Two randomly selected Africans are likely to be as different from each other as two randomly selected homosexuals. An Egyptian has little in common with a Bantu, and both differ enormously from a Boer. There is no shared ‘culture’ among them. Sorry for the nitpicking. It just drives me bonkers that whenever “Africa” or “Africans” are represented in popular culture, it is usually with an uncritical reference to something horrible. We object when almost any other large group of people is represented in this way. To clarify: I will not object if you generalize about, say, African Anglican primates. I also acknowledge (and condemn) the fact that homophobia is very common in many African communities. I just ask for the clarity and respect, when speaking of Africans, that you would provide for Americans, or Democrats, or Muslims, or disabled people, or women, or whoever. Remember that the overwhelming majority of them do not practice genocide or FGM. Thanks ! ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/18 "2004-11-02T20:02:53Z")
:smack: heh heh … I know that Africa’s a continent, not a country. slinks away in embarassment ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/19 "2004-11-02T20:45:41Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > First, it’s not “widespread.” Your cite says it happens in 28 African countries, which is fewer than half of all of them. Actually, my cites **“more than”** 28 African nations. The cite also says “It is practised **extensively in Africa** ”. Extensive. Widespread. Tomato Tomahto. > [@](#): > > And, while we’re at it, can I have a cite for this? [Sure](http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm9.htm) > [@](#): > > Second, your cite also says that it happens in the Middle East and in immigrant communities around the world, so to describe it as “African” is somewhat misleading. Where do you suspect those immigrant populations are from? Further, also from my cite, “In the Middle East, FGM is practised in Egypt, Oman, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates.” Guess what contintent is proximate to those nations? Could it be that the custom predates the Islamic influence there since they are physically attached to Africa. [More from religioustolerance.com](http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm) > [@](#): > > FGM is primarily a social practice, not a religious one. Female genital mutilation predated Islam. It originated in Africa and remains today a mainly African cultural practice. > > [snip] > > FGM has spread to countries in or near Africa (e.g. Egypt) which are Muslim. But FGM is rare or nonexistent in many other Muslim countries. Examples are Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Turkey. Also, It is not done in the Maghreb countries of Northwest Africa. > FGM is only occasionally found in Indonesia and other predominately Muslim countries in Asia. > [@](#): > > Finally: to call something an “African custom” sounds, to my ears, like calling something (and I hate to use this example, but please bear with me) a “homosexual custom.” Each of these uses implies some sort of homogeneity among Africans or among homosexuals. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1cus·tom > Pronunciation: 'k&s-t&m > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English custume, from Old French, from Latin consuetudin-, consuetudo, from consuescere to accustom, from com- + suescere to accustom; akin to suus one’s own – more at SUICIDE > **1 a : a usage or practice common to many or to a particular place** or class or habitual with an individual (bolding mine) It’s a practice (FGM) common (practiced extensively) in a place (Africa). Q.E.D. > [@](#): > > Africa is a massive country, with huge amounts of cultural diversity. Two randomly selected Africans are likely to be as different from each other as two randomly selected homosexuals. An Egyptian has little in common with a Bantu, and both differ enormously from a Boer. There is no shared ‘culture’ among them. Egyptians and Bantu practice FGM. Boers don’t; but you have to wonder if that’s because of their ultimate heritage being from Europe. > [@](#): > > Sorry for the nitpicking. It just drives me bonkers that whenever “Africa” or “Africans” are represented in popular culture, it is usually with an uncritical reference to something horrible. We object when almost any other large group of people is represented in this way. I’ll criticize any group that practices such vile acts. > [@](#): > > To clarify: I will not object if you generalize about, say, African Anglican primates. I also acknowledge (and condemn) the fact that homophobia is very common in many African communities. > > I just ask for the clarity and respect, when speaking of Africans, that you would provide for Americans, or Democrats, or Muslims, or disabled people, or women, or whoever. Remember that the overwhelming majority of them do not practice genocide or FGM. If there were more than 50% of American women undergoing this mutilation, then I’d call it an American custom. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562/20 "2004-11-02T20:52:02Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Finally: to call something an “African custom” sounds, to my ears, like calling something (and I hate to use this example, but please bear with me) a “homosexual custom.” Each of these uses implies some sort of homogeneity among Africans or among homosexuals. Africa is a massive country, with huge amounts of cultural diversity. Two randomly selected Africans are likely to be as different from each other as two randomly selected homosexuals. An Egyptian has little in common with a Bantu, and both differ enormously from a Boer. There is no shared ‘culture’ among them. But it is the Africans themselves who started talking about “African culture.” When Africans are talking about creating an “African culture” that reflects “African culture” and an “African perspective,” there’s no problem with questioning what these values are. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-next-anglicans-female-circumcision/272562.md?page=2)