# What's Rove Gonna Spring On Us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229 "2004-10-20T15:38:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/61 "2004-10-21T20:03:19Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I think there needs to be a parallel of Godwin’s law that whoever uses the most annoying smilies (both quantity and quality) in a debate is automatically declared the loser. Or maybe automatically declared the winner! Consider **all** possibilities, **bup,** before you really settle down to enjoy yourself! 😃 Godwin’s Law, as I understand it, does not say “the first debater to Godwinize loses,” but simply, “arguments will get Godwinized,” i.e., there is always a temptation in political debate to compare something about your opponent, or about the object of the discussion, to something about Hitler and the Nazis. And while that can get annoying, it is **not** always inappropriate! No form of American conservatism really resembles Naziism (except for the actual American Nazis, and they don’t matter), and Bush is no Hitler (has neither the brains nor the imagination to be) – but some of the peope he’s been taking advice from over the past four years are just as cynical, cold, opportunistic and megalomaniacal as the Nazis ever were. OTOH, some have a tendency to Godwinize Pat Buchanan, because he’s strongly opposed to American support for Israel, and because he wrote a book arguing the U.S. should have stayed out of the European theater of WWII and let Hitler do his thing; but that’s inappropriate – Buchanan holds these views, not because he’s a fascist or an antisemite, but because he’s a paleoconservative and an isolationist. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/62 "2004-10-21T22:56:00Z")
My guess: Soon they will release new “evidence” that Saddam was in cahoots with al-Qa‘idah or other terrorists. Another lame attempt to justify the Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/63 "2004-10-21T23:47:56Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Evil Republicans rubbing their hands with glee as they pine away for the days of segregation. Evil corporate drones working in secret to plant “backdoor” computer programs in vote counting software. Evil county clerks looking over a battle plan, picking out who to disenfranchise. All of them winking at each other as they chuckle “BWA-HA-HA!” > > The above scenario is the only possible way that Bush will win. Trickery. Deception. Evil. > > The idea that more people will vote for him than for John Kerry is simply not possible, is it… Bush’s fellow conspirators in the 2000 have been caught. Some of them have lost court cases, like the people who ginned up that fake “felon list” for Florida. So the idea that evil Republicans isn’t some Democratic paranoid fantasy, it’s just a reasonable prognostication based on the behavior of Republicans in the last election. It would be stupid of us to think the Republicans would change their venal, scummy behavior when they won the White House with it in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/64 "2004-10-22T00:41:18Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Hitler was also a socialist Well, not really. From [site: > [@](#): > > Adolf Hitler remained in the German Army after World War One ended in November 1918. Seething with anger at Germany’s defeat, Hitler was employed as a V-Man. Hitler’s job was to visit as many political organisations as possible to check out whether they were right wing, centre politics or left wing. In particular, in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, both the government and army wanted to know who the socialists or communists were. The terms of the Treaty of Versailles only added to Hitler’s anger during this period in his life. > > Hitler also worked within the Education Department of the army and his task here was to lecture returning soldiers on the dangers of communism, socialism and pacifism. > > … > > In September 1919, Hitler visited, as a V-Man, a meeting of the German Workers’ Party. The party name indicated that it had socialist leanings with its “workers’” tag. It was, in fact, an extreme, anti-Semitic, anti-communist, right wing nationalist party lead by Karl Drexler. At Hitler’s visit, it only had 40 members. Hitler informed the army that it posed no threat to Germany. After this visit, Hitler joined the party as it seemed to represent all that he believed in. He quickly became the party’s propaganda officer. > > In early 1920, the party changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (NSDAP) which quickly got corrupted to ‘Nazi’ by both enemies and supporters alike. Hitler wrote out the party’s beliefs in the so-called 25 Point Party Programme. This party programme was a curious mixture - right wing nationalism; anti-capitalism; anti-socialism; anti-wealth etc. And, from [url=http://www.fact-index.com/s/so/socialism\_and\_nazism.html]this](]this[/url) site: > [@](#): > > **Reasons Nazism is considered socialist** > > ``` > * Self-depiction: the German Nazi Party called itself the "National Socialist Worker's Party", and in 1927, Hitler said, "We are socialists." > * The Left Wing (examples include Gregor Strasser and Ernst Röhm), and working class brownshirts (or Sturmabteilung) within the Nazi Party supported socialist programs. > * One writer, Llewellyn H. Rockwell at the Ludwig von Mises Institute, suggests that the chief difference beween Nazism and (as he puts it) others forms of socialism is that the Hitler's socialism was nationalistic while other forms (such as Communism) were internationalist. [1] > > ``` > > **Reasons Nazism is not considered socialist** > > ``` > * Throughout its rise to power and rule, the Nazis were strongly opposed by left-wing and socialist parties, and Nazi rhetoric was virulently anti-Marxist, attacking both communists and social democrats. > > * Nazis proposed that only people who were considered "racially pure" or Aryan would benefit from their policies. This is contrary to the socialist notion of a society for the benefit of all. > > * In his rise to power, Hitler reassured German industrialists that he would respect private property and fight labor unions. > > * Hitler received strong support from the conservatives for the "Enabling Act." This legislation was opposed by left wing social democrats. > > * After coming to power, Hitler sent thousand of communists, social democrats and unionists to concentration camps and killed the communist leaders in Germany. He outlawed labor unions and guaranteed corporate profits for Krupp & Co. > > * The profits of large corporations soared under the Nazis. > > * Ultimately, Hitler was interested in absolute power and is thus correctly classified a fascist. > > ``` And, from [this](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm) site: > [@](#): > > Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Many of the socialist leaders in Germany, including Kurt Eisner, Rosa Luxemburg, Ernst Toller and Eugen Levine were Jews. So also were many of the leaders of the October Revolution in Russia. This included Leon Trotsky, Gregory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Dimitri Bogrov, Karl Radek, Yakov Sverdlov, Maxim Litvinov, Adolf Joffe, and Moisei Uritsky. It had not escaped Hitler’s notice that Karl Marx, the prophet of socialism, had also been a Jew. > > It was no coincidence that Jews had joined socialist and communist parties in Europe. Jews had been persecuted for centuries and therefore were attracted to a movement that proclaimed that all men and women deserved to be treated as equals. This message was reinforced when on 10th July, 1918, the Bolshevik government in Russia passed a law that abolished all discrimination between Jews and non-Jews. > > It was not until May, 1919 that the German Army entered Munich and overthrew the Bavarian Socialist Republic. Hitler was arrested with other soldiers in Munich and was accused of being a socialist. Hundreds of socialists were executed without trial but Hitler was able to convince them that he had been an opponent of the regime. To prove this he volunteered to help to identify soldiers who had supported the Socialist Republic. The authorities agreed to this proposal and Hitler was transferred to the commission investigating the revolution. > > Information supplied by Hitler helped to track down several soldiers involved in the uprising. His officers were impressed by his hostility to left-wing ideas and he was recruited as a political officer. Hitler’s new job was to lecture soldiers on politics. The main aim was to promote his political philosophy favoured by the army and help to combat the influence of the Russian Revolution on the German soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/65 "2004-10-22T07:27:06Z")
> [@](#): > > We’ve already had some RNC offices shot at and ransacked. Anyone else going to point out there’s no mention of gunfire in the article Brutus cited? The article says a crows of people ransacked the office, drew graffiti on some posters, and dumped some letters on the floor. Two people (apparently protestors) received minor injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/66 "2004-10-22T10:48:01Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Anyone else going to point out there’s no mention of gunfire in the article Brutus cited? The article says a crows of people ransacked the office, drew graffiti on some posters, and dumped some letters on the floor. Two people (apparently protestors) received minor injuries. Brutus might not have cited it, but there is a bbq pit thread about stuff like this. I’m pretty sure I remember reading a link in that thread. While no democrat offices have been shot at (yet?), there have been other hijinks. The fun goes both ways this year. Good to see americans so passionate about an election. 😛 As for Karl, I’m not sure he can pull anything this year. With the election as close as it is, there are a lot of eyes on it and a lot of people ready to write away on any tactic deemed questionable. If it works Bush could win, or it could backfire and cost him the election. Even something minor like raising the terror alert could go against the president considering how the media has even picked up some of its “news” from the blogosphere. Think of it like football (american). With a few seconds left in the fourth you are down by one after getting a touchdown. You can go for the extra point and tie the game and go into OT, or you can go for the two point conversion and lose the game if you fail. Of course, if this election goes into overtime, I’m moving to a good dark cave to live out the remainder of my life as a hermit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/67 "2004-10-22T12:49:31Z")
I allowed my frustration to get the better of me with my posts above. I grow weary of the antics of both sides as the election approaches. Each party is reacting to the actions of the other in a continual downward spiral of behavior and rhetoric. Anyone who thinks that their side is blameless needs to take off those partisan sunglasses and emerge, blinking and confused, into the sunshine of the real world. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/68 "2004-10-22T17:18:26Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Anyone who thinks that their side is blameless needs to take off those partisan sunglasses and emerge, blinking and confused, into the sunshine of the real world. Forget **that,** man! No fun! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/69 "2004-10-22T18:56:34Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I allowed my frustration to get the better of me with my posts above. I grow weary of the antics of both sides as the election approaches. Each party is reacting to the actions of the other in a continual downward spiral of behavior and rhetoric. Anyone who thinks that their side is blameless needs to take off those partisan sunglasses and emerge, blinking and confused, into the sunshine of the real world. I don’t think the Dems are blameless, but I honestly believe the Repubs are promoting out-and-out vote fraud at a national level, and the Dems aren’t. Some Dems at a local level are getting up to hi-jinks, but with Karl Rove’ track record wrt dirty tricks and vote fraud, and what that implies about Bush himself and his other advisors, the Repub national leadership is just filthy. The Repubs are so much more active than the Dems that attempts to imply that the Dems and Repubs are equally guilty amount to Repub spin, even if they are not intended as such. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/70 "2004-10-22T19:43:43Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Evil corporate drones working in secret to plant “backdoor” computer programs in vote counting software. Evil county clerks looking over a battle plan, picking out who to disenfranchise. All of them winking at each other as they chuckle “BWA-HA-HA!” > [@](#): > > Walden W. O’Dell, the chief executive of Diebold Inc., sat down at his computer to compose a letter inviting 100 wealthy and politically inclined friends to a Republican Party fund-raiser, to be held at his home in a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. **"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year,**" wrote Mr. O’Dell, whose company is based in Canton, Ohio. [link](http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=828) Replace the words _the president_ with _Democrats_ and what kind of hell would Fox News, Rush and the Sinclair Broadcasting Group be raising about “special interests” trying steal the 2004 presidential election? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/71 "2004-10-22T20:04:51Z")
Another factor putting a crimp in an October surprise scenario is that so many people are taking advantage of early voting options this year (in those states where it is allowed). On the other hand, there was a guest editorial in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution today (by a Republican) urging voters NOT to take advantage of early voting. The editorial warned against voting before the voter knows all the facts, and hinted that there might be last-minute revelations which could change a voter’s mind. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/72 "2004-10-22T20:09:13Z")
Here’s that editorial: [url=“[http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1004/22kent.html](http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1004/22kent.html)”]No Good Reason to Vote Early (Don’t know how long that link will last.) And here’s the language in question: > [@](#): > > Early voters don’t have the same information about the candidates as do those who vote on Nov. 2. They aren’t able to evaluate last-minute issues, gaffes or revelations. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/73 "2004-10-22T20:10:50Z")
Oops. Dang coding. Here’s the editorial: [No Good Reason to Vote Early](http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1004/22kent.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/74 "2004-10-22T20:51:27Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Another factor putting a crimp in an October surprise scenario is that so many people are taking advantage of early voting options this year (in those states where it is allowed). > > On the other hand, there was a guest editorial in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution today (by a Republican) urging voters NOT to take advantage of early voting. The editorial warned against voting before the voter knows all the facts, and hinted that there might be last-minute revelations which could change a voter’s mind. Hmm. 😕 Is this Republican columnist someone who might have a direct line of communication with Rove? (Most of them wouldn’t, I’m sure, nor would Rove trust them with a secret.) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/75 "2004-10-22T21:28:06Z")
Do any Democrats read the Atlanta Constitution-Journal? 😕 I’d think his influence would be to hold Pubbies off more than Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/76 "2004-10-22T21:58:22Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Do any Democrats read the Atlanta Constitution-Journal? It is regarded as a (mostly) Democratic paper, and the city of Atlanta itself (as opposed to its suburbs) is heavily Democratic, so the answer is “Yes.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/77 "2004-10-22T21:59:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Is this Republican columnist someone who might have a direct line of communication with Rove? (Most of them wouldn’t, I’m sure, nor would Rove trust them with a secret.) Betas me. But I am curious as to why he seems to be anticipating a last-minute revelation that might help Bush. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/78 "2004-10-22T22:19:23Z")
Checked the link – the columnist’s name is Phil Kent. Never heard of him . . . > [@](#): > > Georgia just started down this road, allowing citizens advance voting at their county registration offices. Before the Peach State’s July 20 primary, 42,118 voters cast a Democrat ballot; 33,741 opted for Republican ones. > > Georgia Democrat Chairman Bobby Kahn crowed at the time: “Anything that makes it easier to vote helps Democrats more.” Interesting. Is that why so many Democrats fight state voter ID requirements and turn a blind eye to noncitizen voting? Is that why Democrats in key states argue that “provisional” early votes be counted in any polling place a voter pleases, rather than at one’s home precinct? Better still, Phil, you should ask why it is that anything that makes it easier to vote – which by definition helps **democracy** – happens to benefit Democrats more tha Republicans! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/79 "2004-10-23T04:31:03Z")
While we’re on the subject, all you Demmies had me anticipating cheap gasoline prices in September and October, as a result of the Evil Bush Empire’s deal with the Saudies. Where’s my cheap gas? And were’s my October surprise? Time grows short, and I don’t want to miss out on my surprise! Damn; so many conspiracy theories, so few conspiracys. :mad: Oh, wait! These other things have proved unnecessary because Diebold has rigged every voting machine in the United States. Whew! For a minute there I was afraid y’all had mis-led me with your tales of all these plots and schemes. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229/80 "2004-10-23T05:03:24Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Where’s my cheap gas? > > And were’s my October surprise? Time grows short, and I don’t want to miss out on my surprise! Remember all those Hurricanes? They eliminated oil production in the gulf of Mexico. It’s still down by ~25%. Bush dug into the strategic oil reserves, but it wasn’t enough, and there’s still a shortage. No one predicted the Nigerian strike either. As far as an October surprise, maybe Bush’ll have [Steven Hatfill](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6152515/) arrested and held as an enemy combatant. America would feel much better knowing that at least one of the masterminds behind the 2001 terror attacks had been brought to justice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-rove-gonna-spring-on-us/270229.md?page=5)