# Whats so bad about all wheel drive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510 "2017-12-29T13:02:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/41 "2017-12-30T14:54:32Z")
The contention AWD versions of particular cars have more repair problems is without any foundation AFAIK. Same goes for brands (Subaru, for example) that offer AWD more extensively than those which don’t. Subaru’s in general have a better reliability record than numerous brands which don’t offer AWD as extensively. AWD options on models with FWD/AWD option cost more, obviously. They also typically whittle a bit off EPA mpg estimates, and it stands to reason there will be some small increase in expected repair cost in the long term because a few more wearing parts to someday replace. But something that’s going to break because it’s an added gadget: old fogey type thinking (and I’m basically one or close). Plenty of arguably or apparently more complicated stuff in today’s cars is highly reliable (for example hybrid versions of most cars compare favorably in drive train reliability with conventional drive trains of the same maker; the ‘one more thing to break’ principal would say the opposite). Several posts have made the good point that _tires_ good in the ice/snow, on a given car model, are what allow you to stop and steer in ice/snow. AWD only gets you going. But getting going is significant where we live, inner NY area: the streets are plowed pretty fast, but they do that by piling it on your car (parked on the street as most are). In a big snow it’s a big difference how much shoveling you have to do to where a typical FWD sedan can get out of its parking space compared to an AWD SUV (especially with locking diff, etc), latter case you just dig a path to the driver side door and the vehicle does the rest. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/42 "2017-12-30T15:02:38Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I had an AWD 2002 Hyundai Santa Fe. > After 160,000 miles or so, the CV joints started to click, so I bought replacement axles, and went to install them myself. > When I pulled the first one out, I expected to have gear lube come pouring out. > But, no. Not a drop. Somewhere in the previous 14 years, all the lubricant leaked out. I replaced the axles, filled up the transfer case, and drove it for another year or so before I finally traded it in ($300- woo hoo!). rear axles? why would you expect gear lube to come pouring out? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/43 "2017-12-30T16:12:48Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > rear axles? why would you expect gear lube to come pouring out? Fronts. Into the transfer case. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/44 "2017-12-30T17:45:13Z")
If you’re worried about maintenance costs of AWD, buy a Subaru. 2002 Forester wagon, 10 years, 220K+ miles, numerous cross-country trips. Could hold 30 large metal music stands, marching band quad with carriers and other drum, or one timpani. One mechanical breakdown in 10 years, and we weren’t exactly religious about oil changes and tune-ups. Wheel bearings were going when we had the timing chain replaced. It broke about a month after replacement. We cried when we traded Goldie in for a very cheap Nissan. We didn’t cry when we sold that car, which we named Jackie, as it was white and rather cheesy. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/45 "2017-12-31T15:25:48Z")
As I understand it, with 2wd is you proceed in slippery conditions until the wheels break traction. In 4wd/awd, you now have twice as much traction as before, and you proceed with confidence…and therefore will be going TWICE AS FAST when you ( eventually) loose traction. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/46 "2018-01-01T00:21:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In a perfect world, we’d be like you, each with a Mustang and a 4x4 SUV. (Do I sound envious? Nah. Not really. Well . . . perhaps just a bit ;).) Mustang’s a company car, Expedition is a 14 year old beater. Neither is anything special or worth bragging about. > [@Muffin](#): > > That, or at the start of your first donught you sideswiped your instructor, who’s body under your rocker impeded the donught. _I_ was the instructor, so thankfully that didn’t happen. 😃 Good tips on deactivating all of the electronic jigamajoos. I thought it was enough to put it into Sport mode with the gear selector, but thinking about it further, I wonder if Track mode would have been sufficient (pet peeve; it never remembers ice mode when selected with the stupid radio-like switch). I’ll never remember all of the other actions you specified when I want to try doughnuts spontaneously (seriously, though, I don’t; it really was trying to get my wife used to the ice!). ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/47 "2018-01-01T03:03:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Uh… 4WD = Normally rear wheel drive unless 4 wheel drive is engaged. Distribution locked front to rear but not left to right (unless you have usually optional locking differentials). Dry pavement driving not advisable. a minor hijack, but could someone explain to me why 4wd is not recommended for dry pavement driving? I’ve always heard that, but have never been able to get anyone to explain it beyond “drive train pressure” or “stress” or “wear”. Now for 4low I can understand how improved or maintained or paved road driving can be hard on a drive train (driving at max speed for the gear range), but what about 4high? Why is dry road driving in 4wd any less recommended than off road driving in 4wd ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/48 "2018-01-01T03:13:29Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > a minor hijack, but could someone explain to me why 4wd is not recommended for dry pavement driving? I’ve always heard that, but have never been able to get anyone to explain it beyond “drive train pressure” or “stress” or “wear”. Now for 4low I can understand how improved or maintained or paved road driving can be hard on a drive train (driving at max speed for the gear range), but what about 4high? Why is dry road driving in 4wd any less recommended than off road driving in 4wd Because it wears out the front differential needlessly, and gives you terrible gas mileage as most 4WD vehicles are trucks, truck based SUV’s, or Jeeps, none of which get good fuel economy in RWD, let alone constantly driving in 4WD when you don’t need it. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/49 "2018-01-01T03:15:28Z")
You have a differential in the axel because in turns the wheels on the inside of the curve travel a shorter distance than those on the outside, right? The differential allows the wheels to turn at different speeds. Well, the same is true between the front and rear axles, but probably at a smaller amount. A 4WD vehicle has no center differential to allow for this difference while an AWD vehicle does. It may or may not be a differential, but they’ll be something. With no way to allow for the difference something has to give. Usually tires slip but it’s possible to have mechanical parts break. GaryM ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/50 "2018-01-01T04:11:04Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > You have a differential in the axel because in turns the wheels on the inside of the curve travel a shorter distance than those on the outside, right? The differential allows the wheels to turn at different speeds. > > Well, the same is true between the front and rear axles, but probably at a smaller amount. A 4WD vehicle has no center differential to allow for this difference while an AWD vehicle does. It may or may not be a differential, but they’ll be something. > > With no way to allow for the difference something has to give. Usually tires slip but it’s possible to have mechanical parts break. > > GaryM tracking, had to read that a couple of times to get the fact you’re talking about tracking between front and rear. So what you’re saying is that because the rear tracks slightly tighter in a turn the rear wheels rotate at a different rate than the front wheels and no where in the drive train from xmission to xfer case to front diff and from xmission to rear diff, is there a mechanism to accommodate that difference. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/51 "2018-01-01T12:05:42Z")
Correct. If you consider sharp turning maneuvers like parking or backing there’s a large difference between front and rear tire paths. Hence a large difference between front and rear tire travel distances. All of which is absorbed by metal parts under stress and tires being dragged squealing across the ground until the metal unstresses enough. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/52 "2018-01-01T15:16:47Z")
Additionally, tire slippage might in extreme cases cause control issues. Unlikely, but not impossible. Parts and tires cost money. GaryM ---
**Author:** ![WildBlueYonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ce7236/32.png) [@WildBlueYonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildBlueYonder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/53 "2018-01-04T17:25:46Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > To the OP - I suspect your cousin may be a bit skittish about car repairs, and or driving in snow. She really should not be too concerned about AWD costs, and buy what’s needed for the climate and driving needs. Some folks just don’t have to go out when the weather is bad, so that’s a consideration too. > > As has been said, good tires make a big difference, but not all the difference when dealing with snow and ice. I get a ridiculous amount of snow where I live so AWD/4WD, snow tires and good ground clearance is a requirement. > > And still sometimes that is not enough. My plow truck is - 4WD chained up on all 4 wheels with a 10,000 lb winch on the back. When that gets stuck, prepare for a really, really bad day. Skittish? Sort of if you mean money wise. She has a 15 year old vehicle right now thats been babied for all its life. 60-70k miles on it. She doesnt want it to start nickle and diming her or leave her stuck somewhere in BFE. The cars she is looking at seem to be all AWD. She has always looked at reviews of anything she’s bought. She takes months to decide on what to do too. So maybe June she will have a new vehicle. If she babies her cars why does any reviews that are negative for AWD seems moot :dubious: > [@Broomstick](#): > > Can’t speak for anyone else, of course, but I live by Lake Michigan and _don’t_ have AWD or FWD… but I live in an a moderately urbanized area with fairly reliable snow removal. I don’t _need_ either of those and minimizing my transportation costs is important to me. I also keep my vehicles a _long_ time - my “new” car is 16 years old now. If you’re looking at that time span you _will_ replace the tires multiple times, and you _will_ have to replace other moving parts someone who buys a new vehicle every five years (as an example) is unlikely to face. > > If I lived in a more rural area the extra expense over time might well be worth it. If I had more disposable income I might desire it, or it might not matter. > > But making that decision solely because you “read something” without actually considering all factors is not the brightest decision making one can do. Cousin lives near Lake Michigan too, rurally. They plow adequately. She doesnt have to go out if the weather is bad unless its for an emergency. Currently her area has been pounded with snow. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/54 "2018-01-04T19:25:34Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Additionally, tire slippage might in extreme cases cause control issues. Unlikely, but not impossible. > > Parts and tires cost money. > > GaryM Yes to everyone re driving on dry pavement w/4wd. I certainly have when I forget to turn it off. So it’s not likely to blow up in your face. You will notice your car acting odd/not wanting to move when turning a tight corner like pulling into a parking space. You might also hear the wheels skip. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/55 "2018-01-05T03:27:39Z")
I live in the land of snow and cold and elected to get a FWD SUV rather than the proffered AWD one. It made the car cheaper for starters, but I just don’t need AWD. AWD isn’t needed on paved roads, and I don’t drive a lot on unpaved surfaces (though I can do a mean drift in a rally car). While some people think AWD gives them a leg up in handling, I argue that the handling on ice is worse that FWD and good snow tires on my car make up for a lot of the handling difference in snow. Once that snow is packed down, you’ll be driving on ice anyway. Also, because the chassis of AWD cars sits a bit higher, the car has a higher center of gravity and therefore a greater likelihood of rolling. During snow and ice storms I often find myself passing AWD vehicles in the ditch. Why’s that? ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/56 "2018-01-05T16:27:15Z")
Because equipment is no substitute for good decision making and you know how you get that\* - Good decision making comes experience, which comes from making bad decisions… ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/57 "2018-01-05T16:47:59Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > During snow and ice storms I often find myself passing AWD vehicles in the ditch. Why’s that? [ol] [li]You’re a good driver[/li][li]People with 2WD cars don’t venture out as much in those conditions or can’t get out of their driveways[/li][li]People with 2WD cars drive more cautiously because they know they have 2WD[/li][/ol] I wouldn’t have made it out of the school parking lot last night if I didn’t have AWD and ground clearance, and I wouldn’t have made it up the hill without snow tires. They’re both good in snow country. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/58 "2018-01-05T16:56:02Z")
Yeah how often do you hear of cars flipping in the snow? Meanwhile, my car’s poor performance in winter and ease in getting stuck directly relates to low clearance and lack of AWD. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510/59 "2018-01-06T22:15:29Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [ol] > [li]You’re a good driver[/li][li]People with 2WD cars don’t venture out as much in those conditions or can’t get out of their driveways[/li][li]People with 2WD cars drive more cautiously because they know they have 2WD[/li][/ol] > > I wouldn’t have made it out of the school parking lot last night if I didn’t have AWD and ground clearance, and I wouldn’t have made it up the hill without snow tires. They’re both good in snow country. Confession: I have raced cars on ice. I am also smart enough not to think that busting my car through 40" of snow is a good idea. I also am smart enough to understand the importance of snow tires and of steady acceleration versus gunning it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-all-wheel-drive/805510.md?page=2)