# What's so bad about political correctness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603 "2006-07-30T21:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/101 "2006-08-01T02:45:42Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] He believes “it”. His family believes “it”. He probably has been affected by the history associated with “it”. He probably sees himself a part of the general culture that surrounds “it”. He may feel some degree of kinship with those who are also “it”. There’s more to feeling a part of a race or ethnic group than just looking a certain way. _You_ may see him as being just a regular ole white person, but he doesn’t, based on what you’ve written. That alone is signficant. But even if he didn’t see himself as being culturally and ethnically Hispanic, that doesn’t mean his appearance has anything to do with whether he should be considered such. “Hispanic” has even less to do with appearance that “black” does. [/QUOTE] Actually, “Hispanic” has literally nothing to do with appearance, but people don’t seem to realize this. There are Hispanics who are white, black, asian, native american, etc. Of course, my husband thinks of himself as Hispanic, for all the reasons you mentioned. (And, incidentally, I count myself as a person who considers him Hispanic.) But the topic of the thread is political correctness. To me, this is all about classifications & labels, as they are perceived by the general public. You could go on all day about what you are referring to when you use the words “black,” “African-American,” “Indian,” “Hispanic,” etc., but all that really matters is what people think you are when they see you. Considering the general makeup of the U.S., there are always going to be people who don’t quite fit in the labels (white Americans whose background is from Africa, Hispanic Americans who look like my husband, black Americans who have skin as light as any white person, etc.), but we have to try to fit them in nonetheless. It is inherently a contradiction to try to find ways to categorize individuals so no one is left out of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![hawksgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed655f/32.png) [@hawksgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawksgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/102 "2006-08-01T02:54:30Z")
For Og’s sake: there is no such thing as a pure race. What we consider to be races have more differences within them than amongst them. What Sarahfeena is talking about, and I believe would be discussed better, is ethnicity. Race is biological differences, which we now know don’t exist and the only race is the human race. Ethnicity is cultural. A-A culture is different from African culture. If your family is Hispanic but you look white, you identify as Hispanic because that is your culture and your ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/103 "2006-08-01T03:17:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] You are right that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, but isn’t it true that many of the problems the faculty had with him stemmed from the perception that he was too conservative? For instance, and I don’t remember the story very clearly, wasn’t one of the problems that he opposed divestiture from Israel? [/QUOTE] [straying a bit off topic] I’m not sure about that last point. There is a social relations and investments committee composed of students and faculty that advise the president on such matters, though. I have a mate who served on it… never mentioned extreme weirdness from Summers. From what I observe of the faculty culture around here, there is great regard in how one deals with faculty according to rank and profile. You might recall that one of his big early run-ins was with Cornel West - a University professor. That’s the highest rank that any professor at Harvard can hold. But for some reason he had it in for ol’ Cornel. He made public statements questioning his research record of late and accused him of inflating grades. (If you’ve ever read any of West’s academic work on the philosophy side, trust me, you’ll be happy to read Race Matters or listen to the CD he was involved with - the man is deep and dense.) Why he chose West to publicly castigate - who knows? There are several profs, University and otherwise, who might be accused of the same things. Furthermore, it does seem interesting that when Harvard’s most illustrious academic is an African-American man (how many professors at Harvard can most people name?) that a newly-appointed White president would go after him. I mean, professors Derschowitz and Tribe were accused of ethical turpitude - plagiarism - but they weren’t publicly pilloried as West was. It also probably didn’t help that Princeton’s president, a friend of West’s, made an very attractive offer to West to lead the Afro-Am program down there, or that he was battling prostate cancer at the time. One of my profs said that Summers’ problem was that he approached the leadership of Harvard as if he was Professor Summers rather than President Summers. It’s a sport to take down your peers at Harvard, but presidents are supposed to be more diplomatic in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/104 "2006-08-01T15:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] This is true, but seriously, I don’t think it’s quite the same thing as “shout so loud no one can hear him.” If you can find a cite for a campaign, driven by the right, to literally shout down someone you disagree with, I would love to see it, and will stand corrected. [/quote] No, I don’t disagree. It’s a tactic that I find deeply distasteful myself; it’s inherently not helpful to shut down political debate entirely; it seems like campus lefty groups have a history of doing that kind of thing. I’ve personally witnessed some unpleasant behavior from right-wing protesters at democratic events; neither side is necessarily entirely blameless when it comes to obstructing political events. But it does seem like it’s more frequently lefties who try to shout down speakers. > [@](#): > > Please note that I did not deny the presence of racism…I said that it is not necessarily the main obstacle to success in the Black community. These are the kinds of things I am talking about. I believe my statement was reasonable, and you automatically assumed that I meant that there is no longer any racism, which is clearly an unreasonable position. I’m sorry. I was just attempting to abbreviate. It’s a common argument, at least, that racism is essentially yesterday’s problem; if that’s not what you think, I’m sorry. I was just trying to sum up the discussion in fewer words. > [@](#): > > But, see, you have hit on the exact reason I find it so distasteful. It may be true that real racists may espouse certain viewpoints that someone who is not racist might also espouse…_for different reasons_. Where political correctness comes in is that the non-racist does not have the opportunity to show his legitimate reasons for such an opinion, because he has _already been branded a racist and dismissed as such_. Basically, I find that the attitude is that if you have a certain level of openmindedness and acceptance of people, it is thought that this will automatically and necessarily lead you to a particular political philosophy. Ergo, if you are _not_ of that political philosophy, then you are automatically thought to be a racist/sexist/etc. This is the “political correctness” that I am referring to (you are right…the definition is all over the place). Generally speaking, a conservative will consider a liberal at worst misguided and wrong. On the other hand, a liberal will consider a conservative to be evil and bad. This is the crux of it, IMO. I would disagree that conservatives, at worst, feel that liberals are “misguided and wrong”. You only need to read the Ann Coulter threads that appear in the pit to see an easy counterexample. That kind of rhetoric is not at all uncommon; perhaps it’s not as obvious if you’re not on the receiving end of it, but I’m pretty used to a lot of conservatives treating liberals with contempt or worse. Hell, it was only a couple years ago that those of us who opposed the war were routinely being branded traitors. Geoffrey Nunberg, a linguist ane one of the people at [Language Log](http://www.languagelog.com/), just wrote a book whose subtitle summarizes a lot of what the right has been saying about the left: _Talking Right: How Conservatives Turned Liberalism into a Tax-Raising, Latte-Drinking, Sushi-Eating, Volvo-Driving, New York Times-reading, Body-Piercing, Hollywood-Loving, Left-Wing Freak Show_. I’m pretty used to this kind of thing - at any rate, righties often go way beyond saying that those of us on the left are wrong; it often gets personal. > [@](#): > > Racism is most definitely a problem, but I don’t think, quite frankly, that PC affects your garden-variety racist, who really wouldn’t give a damn if liberals think they are wrong. The kind of people it affects are people like me. Most of my friends are liberals (my best friend on earth is a socialist). I feel very often as though I have to watch what I say (not with her, but with other people…her parents, for instance), because I know that if they found out that I tend to vote Republican, they would never look at me the same way again. I dunno. I guess I see that as basically just partisanship; it’s something I’ve come to find on the right as well. It’s easy to find yourself thinking that if someone doesn’t share your politics, they must not share principles you hold particularly dear. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/105 "2006-08-01T15:40:47Z")
PC is just another brand of censorship, an attempt to control people by limiting their freedom of expression. It deserves no more respect than any other brand of censorship (i.e., none). ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/106 "2006-08-01T15:49:00Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] PC is just another brand of censorship, an attempt to control people by limiting their freedom of expression. It deserves no more respect than any other brand of censorship (i.e., none). [/QUOTE] Thanks for this nuanced, persuasive contribution to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/107 "2006-08-01T15:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] I dunno. I guess I see that as basically just partisanship; it’s something I’ve come to find on the right as well. It’s easy to find yourself thinking that if someone doesn’t share your politics, they must not share principles you hold particularly dear. [/QUOTE] I just don’t see it that way, I guess. If a person knows me well, knows from interacting with me in everyday life, and would never conclude (I certainly hope), that I am a bigot or a racist, then why should finding out I am conservative politically change their mind about this? I think that is basic bigotry itself. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/108 "2006-08-01T16:16:13Z")
[QUOTE=Nature’s Call] George Carlin, in defending his preference for “Indian”, says that Columbus did NOT think he had reached India and therefore called the people he met “Indians.” He says that country was known then as Hindustan, not India. The word “Indian” derives from (I’ll get this wrong) “people who walk in God’s grace” or something, “In Dios” Is there any truth to this? [/quote] None whatsoever. Normally, I find George Carlin’s word games moderately amusing. In this case, he’s not only totally off the mark, but substantially misleading. “In Dios” is not Spanish (it would be “en Dios”) and is not the origin of the term, I believe. It comes from “Indio” (meaning native), which was derived from, yes, “India.” Indians were natives to India and the term came to mean savages in general. “Hindustan” and “India” have always been interchangeable. It is idiotic to state that when “Hindustan” was in use, the country was not known as “India.” The former is the Persian term and the latter is the Greek/Latin term. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/109 "2006-08-01T16:19:50Z")
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker] So, in the name of PC, should we thrust a name upon people who don’t even want it? [/quote] Why do you say “in the name of PC” when **yBeayf** clearly states that the reason has nothing to do with PC but everything to do with avoiding ambiguity? > [@](#): > > If we just stepped back, and took everything in a case by case basis, and actually looked at whether a term is intended to be offensive vs. descriptive I think we’d be a lot better off. It has nothing to do with P.C. I am an Indian-American. I am not going to use the term “Indian” for North American natives. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/110 "2006-08-01T16:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I just don’t see it that way, I guess. If a person knows me well, knows from interacting with me in everyday life, and would never conclude (I certainly hope), that I am a bigot or a racist, then why should finding out I am conservative politically change their mind about this? I think that is basic bigotry itself. [/QUOTE] Because they’re a partisan asshole. Now why would someone write a best-selling book calling me a traitor to my country? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/111 "2006-08-01T16:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Because they’re a partisan asshole. [/QUOTE] See, that’s just the problem…these people aren’t assholes. They just are incredibly PC…at least, that’s how I see it. No > [@](#): > > w why would someone write a best-selling book calling me a traitor to my country? If you are talking about Ann Coutler, I can’t answer that, because I have no idea where she gets half the stuff she says. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/112 "2006-08-01T16:48:04Z")
Sorry about the bad quote tag…the “No” is part of your post, **Excalibre**. I should clarify what I say about the people I know who I feel would judge me poorly for being a conservative. They are good people, and they think I am a good person. They ASSUME that our mutual beliefs as far as values are concerned would have naturally led me to be liberal. It would never occur to them that this is not the case. I believe this stems from 2 things: 1) Lack of exposure to people different from themselves (hard to believe in the 21st century, but it is true), and 2) The assumption, as I stated before, that possessing a certain set of values automatically leads to liberalism. (This is the part I think stems from political correctness.) I think that some of this may come from a general misunderstanding/mischaracterization of what “conservativism” means these days. Personally, I prefer the term “classical liberal,” which I think better describes my POV. Tammy Bruce wrote a great book about this, because she insists on calling herself a liberal, although she identifies herself more with what people call conservativism these days. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/113 "2006-08-01T16:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] See, that’s just the problem…these people aren’t assholes. They just are incredibly PC…at least, that’s how I see it. [/quote] People have the political views that they think are right; for most of us on both sides of the aisle, our politics are based on fundamental moral principles. It’s hard to make the leap to be able to view politics through a more dispassionate lens. It’s the same as conservative Christians who have negative opinions of those of us who favor abortion rights. I’m not trying to pull a tu quoque here; it’s just that most of the things you’re alluding to here strike me as basically human nature; if you think that a lot of liberals tend to think “We’re right, they’re wrong”, it’s true - but the same is true on the other side. Coming up with a label for this and pretending it’s some particularly liberal trait is one of the major PR successes of the right. > [@](#): > > If you are talking about Ann Coutler, I can’t answer that, because I have no idea where she gets half the stuff she says. In this case, yes, I’m talking about Ann Coulter - but that’s not really all that unusual. She’s the woman everybody loves to hate, but what she says isn’t all that different from a lot of what you hear on talk radio. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/114 "2006-08-01T18:08:38Z")
I like this idea that we just call people what they prefer and not try to apply one term and say that everyone likes it. In the spirit of this, I prefer to be called Your royal grace, ruler of all and grand high lord of the universe. If you must abbreviate, Your Highness will do just fine. Carry on with the discussion at hand. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/115 "2006-08-01T21:11:03Z")
Censorship has been applied by the right to suppress “subversive” expression; that is, supposedly to preserve order. Political correctness is applied, supposedly, to protect feelings. Both, to me, are equally appalling. (If you’re going to object that this is a simplistic analysis, please provide the complex alternative instead of claiming that one exists.) ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/116 "2006-08-02T01:03:53Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] It has nothing to do with P.C. I am an Indian-American. I am not going to use the term “Indian” for North American natives. [/QUOTE] So, it makes no difference to you that this is the preferred term among Indians (North American natives, as you have termed them). That’s pretty arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/117 "2006-08-02T01:14:10Z")
In my opinion, “political correctness” is a bugaboo. Usually it consists of a hazy set of ‘phrases I just don’t like having to say!’. Poll the American public and I would be very surprised if more than a handful claimed to adhere to ‘PC’. I find it most unmeaningful to have a phrase that basically means any change in social discourse loosely tied to liberals. I say, let’s treat cases on a one-by-one basis, and leave the strawman of PC behind. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/118 "2006-08-02T01:17:54Z")
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker] So, it makes no difference to you that this is the preferred term among Indians (North American natives, as you have termed them). [/QUOTE] Incidentally, [cite](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762158.html) for this. “American Indian” beat out “Native American” 50% to 37% among those that self-identified as Indians. (By the way, “black” beat out “African American” as well) My guess is that it would be an even greater discrepancy if they polled people who actually were Indian. I would venture to guess that many among that 37% are the famous white people who claim to be a great-great-great granddaughter of a Cherokee princess that you run into at every pow-wow. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/119 "2006-08-02T05:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sarafeena** : If you can find a cite for a campaign, driven by the right, to literally shout down someone you disagree with, I would love to see it, and will stand corrected. Do you count keeping people out of a speech altogether as “shouting them down”? That’s what Bush did during the 2004 Presidential campaign. You had to be a supporter to get in. I believe that I recall two people being arrested for sneaking in wearing anti-Bush t-shirts. Even demonstrators at the Republican Convention were kept in “Free Speech Zones” – away from the Republicans. > [@](#): > > **athelas** : Censorship has been applied by the right to suppress “subversive” expression; that is, supposedly to preserve order. Political correctness is applied, supposedly, to protect feelings. Both, to me, are equally appalling. Is there really anyone in your life forcing you to use “politically correct” terms? In my own life I generally try to use whatever word or description the person that I’m talking with would prefer – if I know it. If I don’t know it, I generally go with what is currently considered polite. Notice that I didn’t say “correct.” I choose to do this. Why is it appalling for me to be sensitive of someone’s feelings? (That can end very quickly when I’m pissed!) Using an appropriate word is not something that I dwell on or stumble over. It’s not difficult. I don’t even talk about what’s “politically correct” except in these threads where we talk about how horrible being “politically correct” is. No one I know uses the term. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603/120 "2006-08-02T12:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Do you count keeping people out of a speech altogether as “shouting them down”? That’s what Bush did during the 2004 Presidential campaign. You had to be a supporter to get in. I believe that I recall two people being arrested for sneaking in wearing anti-Bush t-shirts. Even demonstrators at the Republican Convention were kept in “Free Speech Zones” – away from the Republicans. [/QUOTE] I’m fuzzy on what I remember about this. Do you have a cite? What kinds of speeches were protesters not allowed into? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-political-correctness/366603.md?page=7)