# What's so bad about virtue signaling? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867 "2021-06-08T20:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/41 "2021-06-09T17:43:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Despite the above, the term virtue signaling as a whole does predate the right wing coinage, however. Yes. There’s an academic usage that is not exactly congruent with popular usage. Wearing a mask before vaccines were available was useful, and also it was virtue signaling. It served its purpose and also served to communicate about a person’s beliefs and politics. That fact was also detrimental in that lots of people were so concerned about not wanting to communicate those things that they risked lives to avoid it. Now with new guidance about masks post-vaccination, the signaling is all confused. It’s interesting. The way the term is popularly used is more like hypocrisy, but that leaves out the tribalism aspect. Perhaps “empty virtue signaling” would come closer. It’s used to say that people are paying lip service to gain acceptance with their group and feel superior, but don’t really believe or behave any differently from the person disparaging them. There are people who do that, of course, but the term get applied to anyone who uses, for example, race-sensitive wording, on the assumption that it is disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/42 "2021-06-09T19:53:37Z")
I do perceive it as being disingenuous but it isn’t just one side that does it. It’s both the right and the left. Shortly after 09-11-01 a number of my then co-workers started coming to work with American flags on their cars. They weren’t particularly patriotic before then. One woman (who was particularly unintelligent) kept the flags on her car for years afterward to prove she “didn’t just put them on her car because of 911.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/43 "2021-06-09T20:02:35Z")
Look, if you do an act a self sacrifice, and a good turn, sure you get a warm feeling of having Done the Right Things. But why not also desire the reward of acclamation? If you have a job you love and it is a public service, then are you saying you shouldn’t want the paycheck also? ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/44 "2021-06-09T20:04:05Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Doesn’t everybody signal virtue in some way? Isn’t it a normal societal thing to display tokens that indicate you are part of some group? At its best it can normalize a political view that otherwise seems isolated. So, putting up BLM on your lawn in the deepest of Trump Country is an act of defiance that might inspire other BLM supporters to be more vocal and open. It also takes some moxie, there’s a real risk of harassment. When big corporations do it, they’re probably trying to distract from their lack of substance. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/45 "2021-06-09T20:09:51Z")
Take a look through your LinkedIn feed for the most egregious examples. I can’t count how many posts I’ve seen over the last few months from middle aged white guys posting exploitative pictures/videos of themselves hiring a down-on-their-luck homeless vet or giving some black guy his old shoes or with narratives that say (paraphrasing) “All we have to do is give everyone a chance, even bums like this guy have something to offer!”. Thank god they video taped it and shared it with the world or we’d never know how awesome they are. Then queue the endless stream of atta-boys from 1000 other middle-aged white guys sharing it on their feeds and with each other back and forth for 2 months so everyone can get the virtue light shined on them too without actually doing anything. If I don’t give away some thumbs or amens I’m not as virtuous as them. FTR I’m a middle aged white male. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/46 "2021-06-09T20:16:46Z")
That’s a great article. Jason Pargin is pretty insightful for a guy who writes books about zombies and malevolent aliens from another dimension. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/47 "2021-06-09T23:41:31Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I live in a very woke area. I was a member of a Facebook group for the area because it was a useful resource about anything happening hereabouts. Here’s the locally famous example of online virtue signaling/wokeness/whatever I was thinking of. It happened a few years back in Park Slope, Brooklyn, which might be the most woke neighborhood in the US, outside of Berkeley, California. [https://gawker.com/166214/the-park-slope-hat-spat-read-all-the-emails](https://gawker.com/166214/the-park-slope-hat-spat-read-all-the-emails) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/48 "2021-06-09T23:53:12Z")
The story in this Gawker article is like a liberal version of some hyper-fundamentalist Christians, where every minutiae of theology is nitpicked to death, and woe to he who disagrees on predestination or Arminianism. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/49 "2021-06-10T00:52:18Z")
That’s pretty funny. But I don’t think it counts as virtue signaling because I have no doubt that everyone involved in that conversation was 100% earnest. As they usually are. (Everyone was pretty polite, too.) ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/50 "2021-06-10T01:04:37Z")
Bit dramatic to call that a “battle.” ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/51 "2021-06-10T02:46:57Z")
Well, sure, and I didn’t. The article used the word "battle, and also “spat,” which seems more accurate. I just thought it was funny. I live in that area. Believe me, it can get worse. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/52 "2021-06-10T06:38:27Z")
Virtue signaling is when you bring up something that has nothing to do with the topic on hand just to make you seem like you’re on the “right side of history” and then not allow anyone to contradict you. Like when you listen to an episode of a podcast and for no reason the host starts randomly talking about how “Prostitution should be legalized” because they see themselves as a left-wing feminist, but then completely ignoring the fact there are left-wing feminists who actually believe prostitution should be illegal because of the sex trafficking concerns. But then on their Facebook group they get people unironically proclaiming how “woke” and “proud” they are for the host for “taking a stand” but then blocking people who argue the feminist point on why prostitution should remain illegal. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/53 "2021-06-10T06:57:29Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I live in that area. Believe me, it can get worse. Wow, your neighbours have way too much time on their hands. Can’t help thinking a lot of this stuff comes from people having no real problems in their lives, so they have to go out and invent some. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/54 "2021-06-10T12:03:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Virtue signaling (the current version) is supposed to be when someone is saying something for the purpose of looking good, and doesn’t actually care about the virtue being expressed. It’s performative moralizing. > > Someone who really cares can’t be virtue signaling, which is exactly why I hate the term. It is primarily used about people who really care as a way to refute them. > > I genuinely think making this language popular helps the right spread their ideas without actually having to prove them true. And I think we on the left or even in the center should do a better job of trying to stop that. We shouldn’t be embracing their terms. Well, yes – the deal is that the Right Wing has pretty much decreed that _everything_ is “virtue signaling”. Also, beside that, at times it sounds to me like another large part of this society would be just fine with others doing things to build a better, fairer world, _as long as they did not have to see it or hear about it_. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/55 "2021-06-10T13:12:30Z")
The correct application of “virtue signalling” for me would be when people or organisations do the bare minimum of public performance in order to look like a good person whilst not actually giving too much of a shit about the underlying issue or otherwise showing breathtaking hypocrisy. e.g. Corporations and pretty much any fashionable cause from racism to the environment (still got your sweatshop agreements in place haven’t you Nike? Still extracting oil BP?) Religious organisations who ostentatiously preach about the sanctity of life and the evils of poverty from the comfort of their finest robes and gilded palaces. I put more worth on the virtuous act done in the full knowledge that no-one will ever see it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/56 "2021-06-10T13:28:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If someone is the kind of person who would pick up trash on the road and put it into bins to clean up the environment, _ **with or without** _ posting it to social media, they’re a true environmentalist. > > If someone is only taking a photo of them picking up trash for the sake of posting it to social media “Look what I am doing today, cleaning up messy I-35 highway!” then they’re just doing it for praise. I’d say there is still value in the latter: I-35 still gets cleaned up, and people who follow the media socialite might be inspired to do likewise (either just because it seems good, or because they too want to bask the praise of their own followers). Of course pure virtue is pure, but public virtue can be inspiring, and humans sometimes need to be inspired by prominent examples. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/57 "2021-06-10T13:32:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > whilst not actually giving too much of a shit about the underlying issue or otherwise showing breathtaking hypocrisy. Yes, but how do you know that they don’t give a shit? That’s the assumption that is often made along with the accusation. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I put more worth on the virtuous act done in the full knowledge that no-one will ever see it. Isn’t there value in setting an example for others? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/58 "2021-06-10T14:01:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, but how do you know that they don’t give a shit? That’s the assumption that is often made along with the accusation. You can’t know for sure and we should be wary about labelling people but when you have a pretty solid idea that their concern is superficial then the term would apply. Evidence of huge hypocrisy would help give the game away as well. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Isn’t there value in setting an example for others? Of course. A good act carries with it an intrinsic benefit by dint of its outcome. However, if two people were doing the exact same act and one of them did it because they felt it was the right thing to do and the other did it primarily to look good or just to set an example to others then I’d think more or the former. I feel there is a qualitative difference. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/59 "2021-06-10T15:11:56Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Terms like “Virtue signaling”, “social justice warrior” and “woke” are tactics used by rightie trolls in an effort to stigmatize decency. Yup. These are the same people who literally recast ‘manners’ as ‘political correctness’. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867/60 "2021-06-10T15:31:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Corporations and pretty much any fashionable cause from racism to the environment (still got your sweatshop agreements in place haven’t you Nike? Still extracting oil BP?) **[The North Face recently got busted for this.](https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063727821)** > The outdoor apparel maker was recognized by the Colorado Oil and Gas Association with a customer appreciation award — the first time in the trade group’s history that it had given the prize. > > It wasn’t sincere. The energy association was mocking a recent decision by the North Face, which since 2000 has been owned by the $30 billion clothing conglomerate VF Corp., to reject a holiday jacket order from Innovex Downhole Solutions. > > Even though the North Face relies on petrochemicals to make many of its products, company officials last November told the Houston oil field services contractor they didn’t want their well-known brand and famous logo — a stylized image of Yosemite National Park’s Half Dome — associated with the fossil fuel industry. > > The move to treat Innovex like a gun, tobacco or porn company — all of which are [formally banned](https://www.sanmar.com/tnfbrandguidelines) from applying their logos to North Face products — prompted dozens of incredulous headlines in industry publications and at conservative media outlets and, on March 1, the oil and gas award. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-bad-about-virtue-signaling/943867.md?page=4)