# What's so difficult about English "th"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592 "2009-02-19T19:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/1 "2009-02-19T19:52:50Z")
Don’t want to hijack a semi-related thread. I readily concede that some sounds — especially vowels, but some consonants too — are very difficult for people to learn to pronounce. Or even hear. But I don’t understand why “th” seems so universally to be one. It’s simple, isn’t it? Put your tongue between your teeth and blow. The sound is automatic. So, why so hard? ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/2 "2009-02-19T20:23:29Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It’s simple, isn’t it? Put your tongue between your teeth and blow. The sound is automatic. So, why so hard? If I put my tongue between my teeth and blow, I get a raspberry. I think there is more to it than that. And don’t forget that there are two th sounds. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/3 "2009-02-19T20:29:10Z")
Every morpheme that does not occur in the language you grew up knowing is somewhat-to-very difficult to pronounce. Depending on its difficulty, and your skill, you can manage to pronounce that morpheme (whatever it is) with practice. There’s nothing unusual about 'th" in that respect. It’s just that it happens to be a set of sounds not commonly used in other languages. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/4 "2009-02-19T20:32:26Z")
As I understand it, it’s difficult to learn to make new noises past young ages. I’m currently studying Farsi and there’re a couple sounds I’m having a terrible time learning to reproduce. I’m sure any Iranian kid would laugh at my attempts. (FTR, I’m usually good at languages and have a good ear for sounds.) When I was an English teacher, I must have said “ezik mezhdu zybi!” (tongue between teeth!) a thousand times. My kids could do it on command okay, but getting them to make the correct sound (like **Manduck** says, there are two different “th” sounds) when they were talking or reading was something else. It was just an unaccustomed movement, and only my brighter and more motivated students could do it reliably. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/5 "2009-02-19T20:35:59Z")
I don’t put my tongue anywhere near my teeth when I make the th sound. Related question, why is it so hard to learn to roll Rs? It’s given me fits in my Spanish studies. Yet my native speaker friend rolls em like it’s nothing. ---
**Author:** ![masterofnone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/6 "2009-02-19T20:37:07Z")
😕 Ok, really stupid question time - what is the other “th” sound? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/7 "2009-02-19T20:40:42Z")
Amusingly, there was a _Simpsons_ episode in which Ranier Wolfcastle tries to play the role of superhero Radioactive Man, including a scene where a voice coach tries to teach Wolfcastle to say RM’s catchphrase “Up and atom!” Wolfcastle cluelessly keeps saying “Up and at them!” - not something I’d expect from a native German speaker. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/8 "2009-02-19T20:46:59Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > 😕 Ok, really stupid question time - what is the other “th” sound? There’s the sound in Thelma, and the sound in…well, ‘the’. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/9 "2009-02-19T20:49:17Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > 😕 Ok, really stupid question time - what is the other “th” sound? It’s not a stupid question; the difference is very subtle. To explain, I must ask you to read something aloud, and very slowly: **Thou** shalt kill a **thousand** men a day. **Then** the population will **thin**. \*\*The[B/] only difference between **thee** and you is that one is archaic and always singular. Hear the difference between **thou** and **thousand** , and **then** and **thin** , even though the vowel sounsd in each syllable is the same? Now try this: The **truth** is that there are many **truths**. In **sooth** , only wine ever **sooths** my sorrow. Like I said, very subtle. In some orthographies, the sounds are distingished by spelling one dh, but few people every notice. ---
**Author:** ![masterofnone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/10 "2009-02-19T20:52:45Z")
Ok… I don’t hear the difference, but I believe you. I’ve had several sounds in other languages that I’ve tried to learn that I could never differentiate. I just wasn’t aware that there was one in my native language. Thanks for trying, Skald. Still don’t hear it. And the more I repeat those words trying to hear a difference, the less they sound like words. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/11 "2009-02-19T21:03:31Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > Ok… I don’t hear the difference… I notice in Skald the Rhymer’s post that there are superb examples but not an explanation. In “thousand” the th sound is not voiced. During the pronunciation of the “th” part, your voice does not make a sound. The only sound is the air rushing across your tongue and teeth, and your voice doesn’t kick in until you reach the “ou” sound. When you say “those”, the th sound is voiced–you are sort of humming while you are saying it. You will notice it more if you start to say the words VERY slowly and just stay on the “th” sound without saying the rest of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/12 "2009-02-19T21:07:16Z")
also, put a finger on your larynx as you say the words - you should feel a bit of vibration for the voiced “th” because it uses your vocal cords, but no vibration for the unvoiced “th”. ---
**Author:** ![Seeker\_of\_Truth\_and\_Beauty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Seeker\_of\_Truth\_and\_Beauty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seeker_of_Truth_and_Beauty)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/13 "2009-02-19T21:13:31Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > 😕 Ok, really stupid question time - what is the other “th” sound? > **[Pronunciation of English ⟨th⟩](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_th)** > > In English, the digraph ⟨th⟩ usually represents either the voiced dental fricative phoneme /ð/ (as in this) or the voiceless dental fricative phoneme /θ/ (as in think). Occasionally, it stands for /t/ (as in Thailand, or Thomas). In the word eighth, it is often pronounced /tθ/. In compound words, ⟨th⟩ may be a consonant sequence rather than a digraph (as in the /t.h/ of lighthouse). > In standard English, the phonetic realization of the two dental fricative phonemes shows less variation than ma... Fascinating, really. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/14 "2009-02-19T21:18:18Z")
IME of learning English some 20 years ago in the Netherlands, pretty much all students had some difficulty with the “th” sound, since it doesn’t occur in Dutch. To most people here, it apparently sounds like a sharp S for some reason; thunder sounds like “sunder”, while “funder” would be closer to the mark. My English teacher encouraged students to try to produce the “F” sound while mouthing “S”. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunglish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunglish) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/15 "2009-02-19T21:19:58Z")
From Grade 2 to Grade 6 I was in speech therapy learning how to talk correctly. The th and ch sounds were my absolute worst problems. I do credit this time with allowing me to talk with no hint of the hillbilly accent my entire family speaks with. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/16 "2009-02-19T21:27:34Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > Ok… I don’t hear the difference, but I believe you. I’ve had several sounds in other languages that I’ve tried to learn that I could never differentiate. I just wasn’t aware that there was one in my native language. > > Thanks for trying, Skald. Still don’t hear it. And the more I repeat those words trying to hear a difference, the less they sound like words. Here’s a (potentially) easy way to tell with “th”: Pretend to have one of those old timey Brooklyn tough guy accents; “So den, I tawt my mudder a ting or two… or tree”. If you have an ear for how to do it properly (and I feel like most English speakers probably do, if they don’t think too consciously about it), the sounds which become [d]s are the voiced ones, while the ones which become [t]s are the unvoiced ones. It might not help you actually “hear” the difference in the typical pronunciation, but it will reveal that you at least have latent knowledge of its distribution. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/17 "2009-02-19T21:28:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I don’t put my tongue anywhere near my teeth when I make the th sound. Where do you put it? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/18 "2009-02-19T21:33:54Z")
[Though there is some complication with the neutralization of the voicing distinction brought about by intervocalic alveolar flapping (e.g., since “mudder” and “mutter” are pronounced the same way, you might not know what to make of the middle sound in it), but this should still give you a general idea wherever that complication doesn’t arise] ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/19 "2009-02-19T21:36:51Z")
Is the voiced/unvoiced thing also the difference between P and B? Or is that a different difference? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/20 "2009-02-19T21:38:32Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Is the voiced/unvoiced thing also the difference between P and B? Or is that a different difference? Yes, as well as D/T, S/Z and K/G. If you pay attention to where your teeth and lips and tongue are while saying each member of those pairs, you’ll see that basically everything is identical between them. The only difference is voiced and unvoiced. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=2)