# What's so difficult about English "th"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592 "2009-02-19T19:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/21 "2009-02-19T21:38:39Z")
That’s the same difference. [p] is unvoiced, \*\* is voiced. ETA: Beaten to the punch, although you might want to switch the order of **jayjay** ’s first listing to be consistent with the rest. [t], [s], and [k] are unvoiced; [d], [z], and [g] (as in “god”) are voiced. Also, the difference between “ch” (as in “church”) and “j” (as in “judge”) is the same one; “ch” is unvoiced, while “j” is voiced. Similarly, [f] is unvoiced, while [v] is voiced. And (finally?), “sh” (as in “mesher”) is unvoiced while the corresponding voiced sound is the one in “measure”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/22 "2009-02-19T21:41:45Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Is the voiced/unvoiced thing also the difference between P and B? Or is that a different difference? Yes, and also the difference between F and V, and between T and D. If **masterofnone** can hear those differences, he/she should be able to hear the differences between the two pronunciations of th. ETA: Essentially, I’ve been beaten to the punch. Ed ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/23 "2009-02-19T21:42:11Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I don’t put my tongue anywhere near my teeth when I make the th sound. > > Related question, why is it so hard to learn to roll Rs? It’s given me fits in my Spanish studies. Yet my native speaker friend rolls em like it’s nothing. I was recently discussing “soft” Russian consonants with a (non-native) Russian-speaking friend, and he mentioned that inability to properly roll Rs is a fairly common Russian speech impediment. I generally can do it with no problem–just trill my tongue a bit–but it’s difficult after certain other sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/24 "2009-02-19T21:44:05Z")
The thing I always find interesting about claims that one can’t tell the difference between voiced and unvoiced “th” is that it appears to show contamination of literacy over pre-literate understanding; I doubt many modern English-speakers who haven’t yet learned to read and spell would consider the two sounds to be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/25 "2009-02-19T23:40:11Z")
> [@Manduck](#): > > If I put my tongue between my teeth and blow, I get a raspberry. I think there is more to it than that. When I make the th sound, the tip of my tongue touches the tips of my front teeth. If you get a raspberry, it means your tongue is bending away from your teeth. The French “th” sound, such as the word for tea (thé), doesn’t do this, but that’s because it’s pronounced more like “tay” instead of “thay”. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/26 "2009-02-19T23:53:30Z")
Interestingly, I think English speakers may have a wider array of sounds than most other languages. It seems to be easier for me to pick up accents. There are some very subtle differences with other languages, but at the same time, I can usually hear them and deal with them. It would be interesting to hear a linguist comment on this. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/27 "2009-02-20T00:07:04Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > Ok… I don’t hear the difference… See if this helps: say “breathe in - take a deep breath.” Do you detect the difference between the **th** in “breathe” and the **th** in “breath?” ---
**Author:** ![Elyanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5ac83/32.png) [@Elyanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elyanna)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/28 "2009-02-20T00:16:27Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Interestingly, I think English speakers may have a wider array of sounds than most other languages. It seems to be easier for me to pick up accents. There are some very subtle differences with other languages, but at the same time, I can usually hear them and deal with them. It would be interesting to hear a linguist comment on this. There are about 44 phonemes (sounds) in English, give or take depending on your accent. We’re about middle-of-the-road as it goes for the number of phonemes in languages. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/29 "2009-02-20T00:17:51Z")
My best way to show the difference between the two ‘th’ sounds: That thing. You would never pronounce the ‘th’ in those two words the same. Try it. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/30 "2009-02-20T00:18:34Z")
> [@Elyanna](#): > > There are about 44 phonemes (sounds) in English, give or take depending on your accent. We’re about middle-of-the-road as it goes for the number of phonemes in languages. That’s not exactly the same as the ability to decipher sounds and language, however. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/31 "2009-02-20T00:26:14Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > IME of learning English some 20 years ago in the Netherlands, pretty much all students had some difficulty with the “th” sound, since it doesn’t occur in Dutch. To most people here, it apparently sounds like a sharp S for some reason; thunder sounds like “sunder”, while “funder” would be closer to the mark. My English teacher encouraged students to try to produce the “F” sound while mouthing “S”. In college I had a friend from France who couldn’t say his /th/ sounds, and approximated them with /f/ and /v/. I found this strange at first, since the stereotypical French accent uses /s/ and /z/ for that. Sometimes I encouraged him to switch to /s/ and /z/, as that choice sounds better to me, but I think the habit was too ingrained by then. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/32 "2009-02-20T00:30:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The **truth** is that there are many **truths**. Okay, you’ve got me here. These are both the same to me (as are “the” and “thee”, but that may have been your point), i.e. unvoiced. Is it not that way for you? Also, “truths” is a very hard word to say. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/33 "2009-02-20T00:36:47Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I don’t put my tongue anywhere near my teeth when I make the th sound. I gotta ask, then–where do you put your tongue to make a th sound? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/34 "2009-02-20T00:42:14Z")
OK, one more example for voiced vs. unvoiced “th.” Say “thistle.” Now say “thistle” exactly the same way, without the final syllable. Note it should sound different than “this.” Another one. Say “thesis.” Now say it exactly the same way without the final syllable. Compare to “thee.” That’s what “thee” would sound if it were pronounced unvoiced, which it is not. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/35 "2009-02-20T00:54:35Z")
To add to what others have said, some languages just don’t use the front of the mouth as much, so it feels reeeallly unnatural for them to stick their tongue in between their teeth, even though the tongue is just barely between the teeth at all. I share the bafflement about how someone can make the th sound without the tongue coming near the teeth. 😕 An even easier way to tell the difference between unvoiced th and voiced th - or between any voiced and unvoiced sounds: you can whisper the unvoiced ones without changing the sound, but you can’t with the voiced ones. > [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > Okay, you’ve got me here. These are both the same to me (as are “the” and “thee”, but that may have been your point), i.e. unvoiced. Is it not that way for you? Also, “truths” is a very hard word to say. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris I have heard some people say truths just by adding an unvoiced s to the end of truth, but usually the th changes to a voiced sound (and the s is voiced too). (The and thee do have the same voiced th, btw, as I presume Skald knew). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/36 "2009-02-20T00:57:11Z")
FWIW, I have a friend who grew up in London and speaks with a London accent. In his accent, th is f (in think) or v or d (in mother or this). He seems to be completely unable to hear the difference between th and f too, and is adamant that I made it up. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/37 "2009-02-20T01:05:27Z")
> [@masterofnone](#): > > Ok… I don’t hear the difference, but I believe you. I’ve had several sounds in other languages that I’ve tried to learn that I could never differentiate. I just wasn’t aware that there was one in my native language. > > Thanks for trying, Skald. Still don’t hear it. And the more I repeat those words trying to hear a difference, the less they sound like words. What’s really fascinating is that of course you DO hear the difference - if you didn’t it would have been pointed out to a million times that you couldn’t talk right. You’re just not conscious of it. There used to be two letters in old english for the different th’s. And I’m sure if there still were, you wouldn’t have any problem hearing that these were completely different sounds any more than you now have a problem differentiating T from D (which are much more similar sounds, IMHO). ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/38 "2009-02-20T01:20:17Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Here’s a (potentially) easy way to tell with “th”: Pretend to have one of those old timey Brooklyn tough guy accents; “So den, I tawt my mudder a ting or two… or tree”. If you have an ear for how to do it properly (and I feel like most English speakers probably do, if they don’t think too consciously about it), the sounds which become [d]s are the voiced ones, while the ones which become [t]s are the unvoiced ones. > > It might not help you actually “hear” the difference in the typical pronunciation, but it will reveal that you at least have latent knowledge of its distribution. This works with cockney too " Nah ven I taught my muvver a fing or two or free" edited to add scifisam touched on this. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/39 "2009-02-20T01:24:16Z")
Yeah, exactly (with the added bonus of no complication brought about by intervocalic alveolar flapping). Also, looking back on my example, I had meant to use the word “thought” somewhere in there, and, I see now, actually ended up using only the word “taught”. Ah well. The idea’s been communicated; you can all construct your own superior example sentences. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/40 "2009-02-20T01:56:03Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Ah well. The idea’s been communicated; you can all construct your own superior example sentences. Tongue-twisters are good for this kind of thing. Those thirty-three thespians thieved a thousand thistles then they flew through that flue there. Three free throws. Thirty free for thirty-three. Think this, think that, think the other, then think some more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=3)