# What's so difficult about English "th"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592 "2009-02-19T19:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/41 "2009-02-20T03:09:44Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > My best way to show the difference between the two ‘th’ sounds: That thing. Even better: either (“either one is fine”) and ether (“They put him to sleep with ether.”) Same sounds otherwise, but the difference in the “th” means a different word. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/42 "2009-02-20T04:43:22Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Even better: either (“either one is fine”) and ether (“They put him to sleep with ether.”) Same sounds otherwise, but the difference in the “th” means a different word. Ooh, nice. I’d been wracking my brain trying to think of a minimal pair that good. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/43 "2009-02-20T04:59:12Z")
From what I’ve read there is a certain age after which the ability to learn language without an “accent” goes down. Usually it’s around ten. They have looked at Chinese, Korean and Japanese, who learn English and most of them have trouble with the letter “R”. But Chinese, Japanese or Koreans who learn English when they are younger than ten generally have no trouble saying words with “R” like a native speaker. It’s pretty hard to learn a foreign language as an adult without an accent, though certain people have done it and the rules are not hard and fast ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/44 "2009-02-20T05:50:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Even better: either (“either one is fine”) and ether (“They put him to sleep with ether.”) Same sounds otherwise, but the difference in the “th” means a different word. Ooo…that’s the perfect example I was trying to hunt down! ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/45 "2009-02-20T05:56:05Z")
Might some of the problem in communicating this come from differences in regional accents? The London/Cockney thing above is just one example of how English pronunciation can vary significantly from one region/dialect to another. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/46 "2009-02-20T06:41:07Z")
Another pretty good one (depending on your accent): I’m [loath](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loath) to believe him. I [loathe](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loathe) him. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/47 "2009-02-20T07:06:47Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > IME of learning English some 20 years ago in the Netherlands, pretty much all students had some difficulty with the “th” sound, since it doesn’t occur in Dutch. To most people here, it apparently sounds like a sharp S for some reason; thunder sounds like “sunder”, while “funder” would be closer to the mark. My English teacher encouraged students to try to produce the “F” sound while mouthing “S”. > > See also [Dunglish - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunglish) I wonder if this could be regional – around here they replace the "th"most of the time with a sort of softened “d” sound. I sang for a time with a gospel choir here and to my american ear the sound of 45 (brabantse) dutch voices singing “_I’m going to send thee three by three_” in close harmony was…um…startling. It certainly made me feel better about my pronunciation of the word “huurtuin”. Also the word for onion which I refuse to say out loud. With no supporting consonants it always comes out wrong. And did I mention Scheveningen? No, no I did not. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/48 "2009-02-20T07:21:58Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I don’t put my tongue anywhere near my teeth when I make the th sound. I gotta know now too- I’ve tried and found it impossible to create anything remotely resembling a th without touching teeth. (meaning the tip of the tongue to the teeth). Do you speak with a thick accent? ---
**Author:** ![sundog66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@sundog66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sundog66)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/49 "2009-02-20T07:29:46Z")
While we’re rounding up minimal pairs, let me also suggest thigh/thy. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/50 "2009-02-20T09:55:31Z")
What is so difficult about the Spanish soft r, that foreigners always make every single Spanish r (be it r or rr) sound like they think they’re an over-revved car? Sometimes, a th sounds to me as almost-a-z, sometimes almost-a-d, sometimes it’s in between… and it changes depending on where the speaker is from. So yeah, dat’s one sound I don’t zink I’ll ever get rait. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/51 "2009-02-20T09:55:54Z")
With her. Wither. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/52 "2009-02-20T09:57:59Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What is so difficult about the Spanish soft r, that foreigners always make every single Spanish r (be it r or rr) sound like they think they’re an over-revved car? > > Sometimes, a th sounds to me as almost-a-z, sometimes almost-a-d, sometimes it’s in between… and it changes depending on where the speaker is from. So yeah, dat’s one sound I don’t zink I’ll ever get rait. You’re the perfect person to ask, then. Put the tip of your tongue between your teeth such that it is being touched by both the upper and lower teeth. Now expel breath throught that constricted area. What sound is produced? (Yes, I know there are two th sounds, but let’s set that aside for the moment.) ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/53 "2009-02-20T11:03:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > With her. Wither. Both voiced in my dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/54 "2009-02-20T12:40:12Z")
Okely dokely. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/55 "2009-02-20T12:58:16Z")
This was mentioned before, but it got lost in other examples: ``` **Then. Thin.** The vowels are pronounced the same -- at least in my dialect. It's the "th" sounds that make the difference. ``` Is it true that native Spanish speakers have difficulty with “ng” sounds? ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/56 "2009-02-20T13:39:15Z")
> [@Marienee](#): > > It certainly made me feel better about my pronunciation of the word “huurtuin”. Did you ever try going to the Gemeente and asking for a “huursubsidie”? I assume your pronunciation was closer to “hoersubsidie”, so asking for them to subsidize your whoring would probably not have gone over well. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/57 "2009-02-20T14:25:17Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > This was mentioned before, but it got lost in other examples: > > ``` > **Then. Thin.** The vowels are pronounced the same -- at least in my dialect. It's the "th" sounds that make the difference. > > ``` Not the same vowel in my dialect, I’m afraid. Thy/thigh is the best minimal pair, I reckon, because I can’t imagine those two words being pronounced differently anywhere (apart from the th, of course). ---
**Author:** ![masterofnone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/58 "2009-02-20T17:45:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, one more example for voiced vs. unvoiced “th.” Say “thistle.” Now say “thistle” exactly the same way, without the final syllable. Note it should sound different than “this.” I was thinking about this last night, and this is the word pair that made me realize that I do hear the difference. I think I was trying too hard yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/59 "2009-02-20T18:02:18Z")
Thy thigh 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/60 "2009-02-20T18:04:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Thy thigh 😛 I am en-farking-raged that I did not think of this, and I shall be avenged. Expect many dozens of deliveries of chinese food ere the weekend is through, bishop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=4)