# What's so difficult about English "th"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592 "2009-02-19T19:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/61 "2009-02-20T18:59:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, one more example for voiced vs. unvoiced “th.” Say “thistle.” Now say “thistle” exactly the same way, without the final syllable. Note it should sound different than “this.” This’ll eliminate the thistle. ---
**Author:** ![HumanMonkeyGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c67d28/32.png) [@HumanMonkeyGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanMonkeyGod)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/62 "2009-02-20T20:31:26Z")
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, does everyone know what voiced dental fricative means? if it’s not voiced you’re pretty much just blowing air between your tongue and teeth - - unvoiced th sound in teeth. In teethe, the the vocal continues. Anyone not getting this difference is speaking some other kind of English I don’t know. (suddenly to me teeth looks like one of those weird words. ya know the ones, when you say them too much?) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/63 "2009-02-20T21:09:00Z")
> [@HumanMonkeyGod](#): > > At the risk of pointing out the obvious, does everyone know what voiced dental fricative means? if it’s not voiced you’re pretty much just blowing air between your tongue and teeth - - unvoiced th sound in teeth. In teethe, the the vocal continues. Anyone not getting this difference is speaking some other kind of English I don’t know. > > (suddenly to me teeth looks like one of those weird words. ya know the ones, when you say them too much?) That’s ALL words. Repeat a word too often (whether orally or in writing) and you begin to perceive its constituent phonemes rather than the word which their powers combine to create. This is Gaea’s way of telling Captain Planet that the Planeteers need to take a nap. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/64 "2009-02-20T21:24:40Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Not the same vowel in my dialect, I’m afraid. Thy/thigh is the best minimal pair, I reckon, because I can’t imagine those two words being pronounced differently anywhere (apart from the th, of course). My only reason to prefer “either”/“ether” is because “thy” is rather an archaic word, and it’s not entirely impossible that some speaker might not actually be properly aware of its pronunciation (though this is, of course, unlikely for speakers with exposure to certain rather well-known literature…). It’s true that “either” admits two pronunciations varying in the first vowel, but surely most English speakers are familiar with both of them, so that should present no difficulty. But perhaps I am only imagining phantom problems for “thy”… And now I prefer “teeth”/“teethe” even moreso. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/65 "2009-02-20T21:36:20Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > My only reason to prefer “either”/“ether” is because “thy” is rather an archaic word, and it’s not entirely impossible that some speaker might not actually be properly aware of its pronunciation (though this is, of course, unlikely for speakers with exposure to certain rather well-known literature…). It’s true that “either” admits two pronunciations varying in the first vowel, but surely most English speakers are familiar with both of them, so that should present no difficulty. > > But perhaps I am only imagining phantom problems for “thy”… And now I prefer “teeth”/“teethe” even moreso. I really wish I had thought of “teeth/teethe” for a really stupid reason. For my endless (well, nearly done/abadoned) fantasy novel I had to the bare bones of a language, and part of that was deciding what characters represented which phonemes. So I created this insanely long “Orthogaphy” file to keep things straight; it included various English terms as examples. “Teeth/teethe” would have been perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/66 "2009-02-20T22:10:24Z")
> [@Mycroft\_Holmes](#): > > Did you ever try going to the Gemeente and asking for a “huursubsidie”? I assume your pronunciation was closer to “hoersubsidie”, so asking for them to subsidize your whoring would probably not have gone over well. 😃 I did, and when I did, I pronounced it correctly and everything. It isn’t difficult except when two of the impronounceable dipthongs are right next to each other or are unbuffered by consonants for my tongue to warm up on. The man at the gemeente called me a hooker anyway. I never met a people so obsessed with prostitution in my life. They talk about it all the time. Ja, hoor. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/67 "2009-02-20T23:58:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I gotta ask, then–where do you put your tongue to make a th sound? > > -FrL- Well setting here saying that, this, thee in various ways for the last 5 minutes it really depends on how much emphases I put on the th sound. If I want it to be crisp either on on the roof of my mouth right at the gum line, or I bend it all the way down to my salivia glands. If I say it the lazy way I can make the sound without moving my tongue. I have a naturally deep voice so maybe that’s why I can make the sound that way. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/68 "2009-02-21T00:02:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s ALL words. Repeat a word too often (whether orally or in writing) and you begin to perceive its constituent phonemes rather than the word which their powers combine to create. This is Gaea’s way of telling Captain Planet that the Planeteers need to take a nap. It’s not just the constituent phonemes; you start to group the letters differently, wreaking all sorts of havoc. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/69 "2009-02-21T00:07:40Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well setting here saying that, this, thee in various ways for the last 5 minutes it really depends on how much emphases I put on the th sound. > > If I want it to be crisp either on on the roof of my mouth right at the gum line, or I bend it all the way down to my salivia glands. > > If I say it the lazy way I can make the sound without moving my tongue. > > I have a naturally deep voice so maybe that’s why I can make the sound that way. Does anyone actually understand you when you speak? I can’t even force myself to get a “th” that way (and I have a naturally deep voice too). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/70 "2009-02-21T00:10:52Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > I gotta know now too- I’ve tried and found it impossible to create anything remotely resembling a th without touching teeth. (meaning the tip of the tongue to the teeth). Do you speak with a thick accent? About as much of an accent as anyone from the the Michigan/Indiana border can have. I naturally have a lot of baritone though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/71 "2009-02-21T00:14:09Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Does anyone actually understand you when you speak? I can’t even force myself to get a “th” that way (and I have a naturally deep voice too). Yea people understand me just fine. Would you like a voice sample? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/72 "2009-02-21T00:28:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What is so difficult about the Spanish soft r, that foreigners always make every single Spanish r (be it r or rr) sound like they think they’re an over-revved car? > > Sometimes, a th sounds to me as almost-a-z, sometimes almost-a-d, sometimes it’s in between… and it changes depending on where the speaker is from. So yeah, dat’s one sound I don’t zink I’ll ever get rait. If you mean what I understand to be called ‘rolled Rs’ I think it’s the novelty. It’s hard to learn. After you work hard to get a shiny new hammer everything looks like a nail. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/73 "2009-02-21T00:31:31Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If you mean what I understand to be called ‘rolled Rs’ I think it’s the novelty. It’s hard to learn. After you work hard to get a shiny new hammer everything looks like a nail. I could do single "flap r"s (the ones English speakers sometime hear as a “d” like in “veddy veddy” for “very very,”) but those trills (like Spanish “rr”) I simply cannot do in the middle of a word. The strange this is, I grew up making this sound as a kid, so I know I used to be able to do it, but I’ve long since lost the ability to trill my r’s. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/74 "2009-02-21T00:42:36Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I have a naturally deep voice so maybe that’s why I can make the sound that way. I can’t see any way for this to make sense; how would having a baritone voice change the articulatory methods used to produce a particular consonant? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/75 "2009-02-21T00:50:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > About as much of an accent as anyone from the the Michigan/Indiana border can have. > > I naturally have a lot of baritone though. Since you offered, I _would_ like a voice sample, with accompanying video, please, if possible. I can’t imagine what having a baritone quality to your voice would have to do with how you make a ‘th’ sound. Can you say more about that? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/76 "2009-02-21T01:33:57Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I can’t see any way for this to make sense; how would having a baritone voice change the articulatory methods used to produce a particular consonant? Well it’s hard to tell cause your voice sounds different to you then other people, but the way I think I generally make a “th” sound is by making a low pitched sound that’s somewhere between a mutant d and a z and forcing the air between my tongue and the roof of my mouth to refine it. > [@Frylock](#): > > Since you offered, I _would_ like a voice sample, with accompanying video, please, if possible. > > I can’t imagine what having a baritone quality to your voice would have to do with how you make a ‘th’ sound. Can you say more about that? > > -FrL- I might be able to arrange a video. The house is kinda noisy right now so I planned to do the recording outside where it’s kind of night out and not very good light, plus the only hardware I have handy that could record video is my G1 phone. Assuming I can find a 3rd party video recording app for it that works (no promises)… Would tomorrow be okay? Any requested words? I’ll do my best to get some good angles but opening my mouth wide enough for my cellphone camera to see in and watch my tongue kind of changes the way I say things. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/77 "2009-02-21T01:49:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well setting here saying that, this, thee in various ways for the last 5 minutes it really depends on how much emphases I put on the th sound. > > If I want it to be crisp either on on the roof of my mouth right at the gum line, or I bend it all the way down to my salivia glands. > > If I say it the lazy way I can make the sound without moving my tongue. > > I have a naturally deep voice so maybe that’s why I can make the sound that way. If you’re putting your tongue on the roof of your mouth right at the gum line, you’re making an s sound or possibly just whistling. If you’re bending your tongue all the way down to your saliva glands, you’re making a sound which isn’t common in English but is common in other languages (and Darth Vaderese). This area of linguistics is descriptive. The unvoiced th sound is made by putting the tongue ever-so-slightly between the teeth (with the tongue slightly pointed towards the top teeth) and letting air out. The voiced th is made by performing the same action and voicing the sound. If you’re using your mouth and tongue in a different way, you’re making a different sound. You just are. You can’t claim ‘I can make the same sound by using different parts of my mouth’ any more than you can claim ‘I can hit the letter c on the keyboard and it comes out as a g,’ unless your keyboard has been reset; I doubt your mouth is different to all other humans. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/78 "2009-02-21T02:47:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well it’s hard to tell cause your voice sounds different to you then other people, but the way I think I generally make a “th” sound is by making a low pitched sound that’s somewhere between a mutant d and a z and forcing the air between my tongue and the roof of my mouth to refine it. > > I might be able to arrange a video. The house is kinda noisy right now so I planned to do the recording outside where it’s kind of night out and not very good light, plus the only hardware I have handy that could record video is my G1 phone. Assuming I can find a 3rd party video recording app for it that works (no promises)… Would tomorrow be okay? Any requested words? > > I’ll do my best to get some good angles but opening my mouth wide enough for my cellphone camera to see in and watch my tongue kind of changes the way I say things. Any of the th words we’ve been discussing would be good. Wow, might this be the first time in the history of the dope that someone videotaped their tongue for the rest of us? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/79 "2009-02-21T02:50:19Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well setting here saying that, this, thee in various ways for the last 5 minutes it really depends on how much emphases I put on the th sound. > > If I want it to be crisp either on on the roof of my mouth right at the gum line, The gumline is right next to the teeth isn’t it? (I ask because earlier you said you don’t put your tongue near your teeth for a th sound, and I want to be sure I am understanding you correctly.) > [@](#): > > or I bend it all the way down to my salivia glands. I’m actually not sure where that is! :eek: My anatomical ignorance is woeful. > [@](#): > > If I say it the lazy way I can make the sound without moving my tongue. That I’ve got to see! > [@](#): > > I have a naturally deep voice so maybe that’s why I can make the sound that way. Like I said before, I don’t understand what having a deep voice would have to do with any of this. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592/80 "2009-02-21T02:52:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I could do single "flap r"s (the ones English speakers sometime hear as a “d” like in “veddy veddy” for “very very,”) but those trills (like Spanish “rr”) I simply cannot do in the middle of a word. The strange this is, I grew up making this sound as a kid, so I know I used to be able to do it, but I’ve long since lost the ability to trill my r’s. Wait till you’re old enough to wear an upper denture. I can trill like a hummingbird. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-difficult-about-english-th/486592.md?page=5)