That’s the same difference. [p] is unvoiced, ** is voiced.
ETA: Beaten to the punch, although you might want to switch the order of jayjay’s first listing to be consistent with the rest. [t], [s], and [k] are unvoiced; [d], [z], and [g] (as in “god”) are voiced. Also, the difference between “ch” (as in “church”) and “j” (as in “judge”) is the same one; “ch” is unvoiced, while “j” is voiced. Similarly, [f] is unvoiced, while [v] is voiced. And (finally?), “sh” (as in “mesher”) is unvoiced while the corresponding voiced sound is the one in “measure”.
Yes, and also the difference between F and V, and between T and D. If masterofnone can hear those differences, he/she should be able to hear the differences between the two pronunciations of th.
I was recently discussing “soft” Russian consonants with a (non-native) Russian-speaking friend, and he mentioned that inability to properly roll Rs is a fairly common Russian speech impediment. I generally can do it with no problem–just trill my tongue a bit–but it’s difficult after certain other sounds.
The thing I always find interesting about claims that one can’t tell the difference between voiced and unvoiced “th” is that it appears to show contamination of literacy over pre-literate understanding; I doubt many modern English-speakers who haven’t yet learned to read and spell would consider the two sounds to be the same.
Interestingly, I think English speakers may have a wider array of sounds than most other languages. It seems to be easier for me to pick up accents. There are some very subtle differences with other languages, but at the same time, I can usually hear them and deal with them. It would be interesting to hear a linguist comment on this.
There are about 44 phonemes (sounds) in English, give or take depending on your accent. We’re about middle-of-the-road as it goes for the number of phonemes in languages.
In college I had a friend from France who couldn’t say his /th/ sounds, and approximated them with /f/ and /v/. I found this strange at first, since the stereotypical French accent uses /s/ and /z/ for that.
Sometimes I encouraged him to switch to /s/ and /z/, as that choice sounds better to me, but I think the habit was too ingrained by then.
Okay, you’ve got me here. These are both the same to me (as are “the” and “thee”, but that may have been your point), i.e. unvoiced. Is it not that way for you? Also, “truths” is a very hard word to say.
OK, one more example for voiced vs. unvoiced “th.” Say “thistle.” Now say “thistle” exactly the same way, without the final syllable. Note it should sound different than “this.” Another one. Say “thesis.” Now say it exactly the same way without the final syllable. Compare to “thee.” That’s what “thee” would sound if it were pronounced unvoiced, which it is not.
To add to what others have said, some languages just don’t use the front of the mouth as much, so it feels reeeallly unnatural for them to stick their tongue in between their teeth, even though the tongue is just barely between the teeth at all.
I share the bafflement about how someone can make the th sound without the tongue coming near the teeth.
An even easier way to tell the difference between unvoiced th and voiced th - or between any voiced and unvoiced sounds: you can whisper the unvoiced ones without changing the sound, but you can’t with the voiced ones.
I have heard some people say truths just by adding an unvoiced s to the end of truth, but usually the th changes to a voiced sound (and the s is voiced too). (The and thee do have the same voiced th, btw, as I presume Skald knew).
FWIW, I have a friend who grew up in London and speaks with a London accent. In his accent, th is f (in think) or v or d (in mother or this). He seems to be completely unable to hear the difference between th and f too, and is adamant that I made it up.
What’s really fascinating is that of course you DO hear the difference - if you didn’t it would have been pointed out to a million times that you couldn’t talk right. You’re just not conscious of it.
There used to be two letters in old english for the different th’s. And I’m sure if there still were, you wouldn’t have any problem hearing that these were completely different sounds any more than you now have a problem differentiating T from D (which are much more similar sounds, IMHO).
Yeah, exactly (with the added bonus of no complication brought about by intervocalic alveolar flapping).
Also, looking back on my example, I had meant to use the word “thought” somewhere in there, and, I see now, actually ended up using only the word “taught”. Ah well. The idea’s been communicated; you can all construct your own superior example sentences.
