# What's so good about Citizen Kane? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 11, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443 "2009-10-11T22:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/41 "2009-10-13T07:50:09Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > I just want to jump in and reinforce this. People today watch movies on their TV. This is like listening to full orchestra music on an AM radio. You are just not getting the experience that was intended. Admittedly, it is nearly impossible to see the great movies of the past on the big screen, unless you are in a large metropolitan area with an active film society. All I can suggest is that if you are seeing one of the classics on TV you’ve got to discount the experience accordingly. And if you are really interested, seek out the big screen presentations, you won’t be disappointed. Absolutely. The scene where Kane’s mansion is filled with packing crates is emotionally devastating in it’s proper environment; a huge, empty echoing hall - like a movie theater. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/42 "2009-10-13T15:45:13Z")
There is no film, no novel, no symphony, no work of art that is so great and universally loved that there won’t be someone who will feel proud of themselves for taking a shit on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/43 "2009-10-13T17:13:27Z")
I have to second or third the idea that in most cases it is essential to see these old classics projected on a big screen. While it is possible to enjoy many films on television or DVD the impact is never the same. Others have done a good job pointing out the reasons this is considered a classic though I would mention the fact Welles was 25 at the time he made this film. His performance as Kane is extraordinary and the fact he managed to make such an amazing film at such a young age should be taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/44 "2009-10-13T18:21:19Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Huh? It’s absolutely necessary. It emphasizes that most people only surrounded Kane when he had something to offer them, and abandoned him when he didn’t, while the people that loved him most were driven away by his attempts to force his ill-mannered generosity upon them. In the end, Kane was nothing more than a vast, incomplete, crumbling house with a warehouse full of treasures that he acquired but never enjoyed, and hidden amongst them was the symbol of the one thing he could never buy or return to. The last third of the movie makes the story; without it, it is just a fictionalized biopic about the rise and fall of a famous publisher. > > Stranger Maybe I’m not being clear: the reporter goes and finds three specific major stories/vignettes about Kane. The third one, in my opinion, added nothing to the story and simply dragged on. It would be a better film to have condensed the last two vignettes into one and shave a half-hour off the running time. That was the real Third Act, although the film also had an important introduction and closing, of course. Those should remain intact. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/45 "2009-10-14T03:44:54Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Maybe I’m not being clear: the reporter goes and finds three specific major stories/vignettes about Kane. The third one, in my opinion, added nothing to the story and simply dragged on. It would be a better film to have condensed the last two vignettes into one and shave a half-hour off the running time. That was the real Third Act, although the film also had an important introduction and closing, of course. Those should remain intact. I don’t know if I follow you here. The film is basically divided into four major sections - Thompson the reporter visiting the Thatcher library to read Thatcher’s memoirs, interviewing Bernstein, then Jedidiah Leland and finally Thompson’s second interview with Susan Alexander. There are of course other brief sections like the part at the beginning where we see Kane die and watch the newsreel of his life and at the end where Thompson has a brief interview with Raymond the butler. The third act to my mind is mostly made up of the story told by Susan Alexander. I think this information is crucial to understanding why Kane ended up so alone in his huge mansion. [Here](http://www.tc.umn.edu/~ryahnke/filmteach/x-kane2.htm) is a link to a scene by scene breakdown of the film. I’m just curious what parts you think went on too long or in your opinion added nothing to the story. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/46 "2009-10-14T13:10:18Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > There is no film, no novel, no symphony, no work of art that is so great and universally loved that there won’t be someone who will feel proud of themselves for taking a shit on it. Not that this applies to the original poster, but I often find that 20-30somethings will often watch this film and wonder what the big deal is when they have never really watched or are very familiar with 40s films to begin with. I was once in Argentina and smoked a Cuban cigar to see what the fuss was about. Tasted like crap. Of course, I had never smoked a cigar before so I really can’t judge whether it was a good cigar or not. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/47 "2009-10-14T14:14:24Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I don’t know if I follow you here. The film is basically divided into four major sections - Thompson the reporter visiting the Thatcher library to read Thatcher’s memoirs, interviewing Bernstein, then Jedidiah Leland and finally Thompson’s second interview with Susan Alexander. There are of course other brief sections like the part at the beginning where we see Kane die and watch the newsreel of his life and at the end where Thompson has a brief interview with Raymond the butler. The third act to my mind is mostly made up of the story told by Susan Alexander. I think this information is crucial to understanding why Kane ended up so alone in his huge mansion. [Here](http://www.tc.umn.edu/~ryahnke/filmteach/x-kane2.htm) is a link to a scene by scene breakdown of the film. I’m just curious what parts you think went on too long or in your opinion added nothing to the story. A good chunk of scenes 32-44, basically. (Thanks for refreshing my memory with that site, too). The issue was that while it’s informative, yes, it’s not neccessarily really valuable to me as a viewer. I could already see that Kane was seriously sailing for the iceberg already, and I felt the long singing/fake starlet sections just weren’t useful. They went on way too long and ultimately didn’t lead to anything that wasn’t blatantly obvious beforehand. I can only assume that the point was to show that Kane couldn’t let go of anything, but I had time incorporating it because, not that it was fundam,entally irrational, but because I knew Kane would have known it was impossible. I could see Kane finding a mistress or wife who had some talent but not nearly enoug to carry on, but not going for what he did. So for me it was a long-winded dramatic failure. It stated the movie’s overall direction again but a little over-the-top. Ed: The other reason I think that section should have been shrunk considerably was that I think the movie hits a huge climax when Kane is forced to back down in politics. Everything after that is sort of a dreary and unpleasant afterthought UNTIL the finale (scenes 45-onward). So they needed to shrink the problem bit down or introduce stronger dramatic tension in the “third act”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/48 "2009-10-14T15:51:12Z")
I have seen it many times. I still love it. I am old enough to have seen it before all the camera techniques were copied and improved upon. It was stunning in its time. It is still a great movie, a colossal human tragedy, the stuff Shakespeare is made out of. Great story, great acting innovative techniques and people still question it. I don’t understand how. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/49 "2009-10-15T00:55:38Z")
I like old black and white films and all, and I do see that CK was (is?) a landmark picture, but I have no desire to watch it again. If it ever came to a theater I would go see it (to see if seeing on a big screen would change my feelings about it). I am not well versed in cinematography, but have to give the film its due. The makeup certainly looks crude today, but that’s minor. I just find that Kane was a jerk and I don’t have a lot of sympathy for him. Simplistic and shallow, perhaps, but the film did its work too well for me in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/50 "2009-10-15T01:04:01Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I just find that Kane was a jerk Yeah, but the big ol’ tragedy is that he didn’t start out as one. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/51 "2009-10-15T02:14:56Z")
Haven’t seen it. Know I will have to eventually, but in no hurry. Will listen to Ebert my second time through. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but the big ol’ tragedy is that he didn’t start out as one. None, or few, of us do. There’s no news in that. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/52 "2009-10-15T02:25:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > None, or few, of us do. There’s no news in that. But there is art in that. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/53 "2009-10-15T02:26:47Z")
And I would venture to say that most of us don’t wind up dying alone, miserable, and longing for our childhood innocence. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/54 "2009-10-15T02:30:22Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But there is art in that. I absolutely admit that. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/55 "2009-10-15T02:32:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, but the big ol’ tragedy is that he didn’t start out as one. Eh, maybe. Certainly not as a child, but AFAIR, he had choices to make all through his life. He made spectacularly bad ones when it came to people and relationships. The whole girlfriend must be an opera singer is a case in point. And most of us will end up dying alone–not as melodramatically, but I’ve seen waaaaay too many older folks die to buy into death scenes in movies, no matter how well played or portrayed. But CK is a masterpiece. I’m not “dissing” the film; it’s just not on my list of movies to watch when I have a few hours to kill. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/56 "2009-10-15T02:50:33Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Eh, maybe. Certainly not as a child, but AFAIR, he had choices to make all through his life. He made spectacularly bad ones when it came to people and relationships. The whole girlfriend must be an opera singer is a case in point. She was one of the few (perhaps the only) people he’d met in years that didn’t want anything from him, and who loved him simply for what it was. The ironic tragedy, of course, is that he drove her away by trying to give her everything he thought she wanted, or at least, should want. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > But CK is a masterpiece. I’m not “dissing” the film; it’s just not on my list of movies to watch when I have a few hours to kill. YMMV. Yeah, it’s not really that type of film. Like, say, _Raging Bull_ or Kurosawa’s _Ran_, it is a film that is a mastery of what it is trying to convey, but not really an easy film to watch for enjoyment. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/57 "2009-10-15T03:02:36Z")
Well, it would be too simplistic to say that Kane was a jerk. He was a jerk, but part of the tragedy is that he really did try to do wel by people.He was never able to be wholly innocent about it, and could never seperate his desires from their needs. In short, Kane is a clasical Tragic Hero. He is undone by a single flaw which dooms him, but not really deservedly, because the world itself was conspiring against him. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/58 "2009-10-15T03:09:33Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, it would be too simplistic to say that Kane was a jerk. He was a jerk, but part of the tragedy is that he really did try to do wel by people.He was never able to be wholly innocent about it, and could never seperate his desires from their needs. In short, Kane is a clasical Tragic Hero. He is undone by a single flaw which dooms him, but not really deservedly, because the world itself was conspiring against him. I don’t know. To me his “Declaration of Principles” was an important part of the movie because he writes it when he’s idealistic and then tears it up when he’s wealthy and powerful, which shows the transformation in his character from caring about the little guy to looking out for his own self interest. It seems to me that after becoming rich, powerful, and influential he stopped trying to do right by people and do right by himself. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/59 "2009-10-15T11:22:34Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, it would be too simplistic to say that Kane was a jerk. He was a jerk, but part of the tragedy is that he really did try to do wel by people.He was never able to be wholly innocent about it, and could never seperate his desires from their needs. In short, Kane is a clasical Tragic Hero. He is undone by a single flaw which dooms him, but not really deservedly, because the world itself was conspiring against him. :rolleyes: Because I must always be erudite and eloquent when speaking on a topic on a message board. I know Kane ended up pushing her away; that was part of my “spectacularly bad judgement” stuff. I just really don’t see him as an object of sympathy (some, not much). It IS an excellent depiction of a flawed and complex man. I don’t see the world conspiring against him–I see his own ego and delusions as tripping him up in the end. And he does concretely portray that old adage: watch how you step on the way up, you’ll meet those same people on your way down. (paraphrased-it’s too damned early in the morning to be discussing this stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443/60 "2009-10-15T17:20:53Z")
Complaints that compare the makeup effects to modern day special effects: Whatever. Welles was 25 years old when he played all those different stages in a man’s life. Twenty frikkin five. Boom, game over, nothin more you can say. Complaints that every scene has to push the plot forward: plot ain’t all there is to story. Character development, relationships, etc., are far more important in a great story. Just because Michael Bay doesn’t waste any time with it doesn’t mean it’s a waste of time. If a great story is taking its time to show you what it’s showing you, let it show you, don’t demand it immediately give you what you want right now. Life is more than car chases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-good-about-citizen-kane/513443.md?page=4)