# What's so great about the Christian heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544 "2012-01-24T22:03:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/81 "2012-03-30T14:16:22Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Why do you think there’s no beer? Jesus was a wine-drinker, and he ate and drank post-resurrection, so I would think beer in heaven is not out of the question. > > Your understanding, unsurprisingly, is wrong. So if you are in Heaven and your loved one is in hell, how _do_ you feel about it? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/82 "2012-03-30T16:03:13Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > What is a good person? I’m certainly not one and I’m going. > > Would you really want to live in a world that had no evil? Even stipulating that we could agree what evil is? “Evil” is kind of a theologically loaded term, so how about “suffering”? Yes, I would want to live in a world without suffering. Wouldn’t you? Does heaven have suffering? If not, are you saying that you don’t want to live there? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/83 "2012-03-30T16:11:33Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > “Evil” is kind of a theologically loaded term, so how about “suffering”? Yes, I would want to live in a world without suffering. Wouldn’t you? > > Does heaven have suffering? If not, are you saying that you don’t want to live there? I’m not trying to be flippant, but these kinds of questions demand that we operate with the same definitions. So… How does one divorce evil and suffering? Of one is suffering (as opposed tomere discomfort) isn’t there some evil behind it? Responsible for it? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/84 "2012-03-30T16:16:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if you are in Heaven and your loved one is in hell, how _do_ you feel about it? Well on the one hand, obviously I would feel unconsolable. Yet I also know that there is no grief in heaven. So the question is how do I reconcile this contradiction? One way is to speculate that either I don’t know the fate of my loved ones, or I don’t care. For those who believe that non-believers go to hell, this is the only logical resolution I can think of. However I find both unlikely. Scripture implies that we will have perfect knowledge in heaven, so I don’t believe we would be ignorant of others’ fates. Wouldn’t we notice if our loved one was missing? And since God is loving and caring and desirous of relationship, I cannot reconcile that with being unconcerned with the suffering of others. Finding both those answers unsatisfactory, some time ago I came to adopt a universalist position. I believe the grace of God is ultimately irresistible, and no one is condemned to eternal punishment in Hell. This is a minority view in Christianity but one with a long, orthodox history and scriptural support. And I think ultimately more intellectually satisfying. I’ve recommended Rob Bell’s recent book _Love Wins_ in these threads before - it’s a quick read and lays out a good overview for non-theologians. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/85 "2012-03-30T18:52:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Mark Twain’s _Letters From the Earth_ goes into the matter in some detail. I just started reading _Letters From the Earth_ and it made me want to start a thread like this one. I was hoping to hear from believers about what their own specific expectations of Heaven were like. Unfortunately, there’s pretty much none of that in this thread yet. Of course, this may not be the best group to ask, but I know there are some believers here. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/86 "2012-03-30T18:56:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if you are in Heaven and your loved one is in hell, how _do_ you feel about it? As much as I loved my parents, after 3 or 4 days together we would all be a bit weary of each other. I can’t imagine 3 or 4 billion years with them with billions and billions more to come. I’d be praying for hell. Or maybe that would be hell. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/87 "2012-03-30T19:05:43Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Your understanding, unsurprisingly, is wrong. Or more likely you are just in denial about the historical position of Christianity. It’s quite common among believers; Christianity has historically been extremely vicious, which doesn’t line up with the “religion of peace and love” propaganda Christians like to push these days. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/88 "2012-03-30T19:11:27Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > I just started reading _Letters From the Earth_ and it made me want to start a thread like this one. I was hoping to hear from believers about what their own specific expectations of Heaven were like. Unfortunately, there’s pretty much none of that in this thread yet. Of course, this may not be the best group to ask, but I know there are some believers here. I don’t have a really good idea about what eternity will be like. The Bible talks about creation being restored and perfected; a “New Jerusalem.” I infer that it will be recognizable as the creation we are used to, but somehow better in a way we might find hard to imagine. No suffering, no hatred, no tears; no boredom or restlessness either. To borrow a well-used analogy (thanks Plato!) it will be as if the world we’ve lived in all this time is just a shadow, a pale, flat, featureless image of what will be revealed in the age to come. The new creation will be deeper, more “real,” like waking from a dream. Anyway, that’s just all vague speculation. I don’t tend to dwell on thoughts of it because 1) details in the Bible are vague and prone to misinterpretation; 2) it doesn’t really matter much to how I live today and 3) I’ll find out soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/89 "2012-03-30T19:15:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or more likely you are just in denial about the historical position of Christianity. It’s quite common among believers; Christianity has historically been extremely vicious, which doesn’t line up with the “religion of peace and love” propaganda Christians like to push these days. Why is that more likely? Of the two of us, which do you think knows more Christians? Spends more time with them? Reads more contemporary Christian books, magazines, etc? Attended more worship services, sermons, seminars, conferences and university classes on religion? What’s more likely is that you have made up your mind about what Christianity is and don’t care to entertain any evidence that you might be wrong in your sweeping generalizations. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/90 "2012-03-30T19:24:31Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Of the two of us, which do you think knows more Christians? Spends more time with them? Reads more contemporary Christian books, magazines, etc? Attended more worship services, sermons, seminars, conferences and university classes on religion? What does any of that have to do with the historical position of Christianity? You even had to qualify your attempted defense with “contemporary Christian books”. [QUOTE=Tertullian] ‘The greatest joy of Heaven is in watching the torments of the damned in Hell - a spectacle far more pleasing than any upon Earth.’ [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/91 "2012-03-30T19:44:24Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Why is that more likely? Of the two of us, which do you think knows more Christians? Spends more time with them? Reads more contemporary Christian books, magazines, etc? It’s not surprising that contemporary books and magazines don’t mention this, because it’s a very disturbing idea. But it has great historical support in Christian thought. [Here’s a scholarly paper on it](http://www.rts.edu/Site/Virtual/Resources/Student_Theses/Johnson-Seeing_Hell.pdf) (warning: PDF): > [@](#): > > This thesis will demonstrate two main truths: > First: > That those in heaven will, in fact, know of and probably even visually behold those in hell. > Second: > That this knowledge and sight of the condemned dead is not troubling to the saints, but rather gives more cause for praises. > **STRUCTURE** > This thesis will be undertaken in the following manner: > First: > A review of relevant historical material will be given. It will ask what the voices of the past have spoken in regards to this topic? > Second: > Scripture will be applied. Historical sources are important; but incomplete without Biblical texts as the rightful authority. > Third: > Roadblocks to progress will be discussed. Admittedly, this thesis sobers the mind considerably. Many recoil instinctually at it. Many objections instantly spring to mind. Do these objections have valid rebuttals? An entire section will determine just that. > Fourth: > Positive arguments will be presented for this thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/92 "2012-03-30T19:45:24Z")
Heck, you don’t have to all the way back to Tertullian. Jonathan Edwards (18th c) said "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.” You could probably find similar attitudes in the 20th century and today. Looking upthread, I’ll admit I misparsed your sentence when you said “historically gloating over the torments of the damned was considered one of the pleasures of heaven.” Without a comma after ‘historically’ I missed that you weren’t talking about contemporary Christianity. That’s been _a_ view of some theologians throughout the centuries, and I’m sure that view persists today. But it’s not representative of modern Christian thought. When you say, “There’s a strong streak of sadism in Christianity for all its babbling about ‘love’” you are overstating it. There are assholes who are Christians, they’re not over-represented compared to any other cultural groups. Yet you have a penchant for finding the warts in Christian history and extrapolating it to the whole religion. ETA: Curt, thanks for that paper, it looks interesting (and disturbing). ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/93 "2012-04-01T11:53:12Z")
> [@](#): > > the saints will be very, very happy in the sunshine of God’s love According to the Baptists, all Christians are enjoined to be saints too. From a Utilitarian perspective, it’s simple: infinite ecstasy is possible. Just switch on all the pleasure centres of the brain, switch off any pain ones and sit in lambent bliss for all eternity. One’s incorporeal body could be “tortured” for the duration and it wouldn’t matter a jot. Reverse the situation with pain centres on full blast and no salve could fix the individuals involved. There’s no variety and there’s no volition: God would be the cosmic crack dealer. That isn’t the most salient criticism of (one admittedly strawmanned conception of) heaven though. The primary objection is that of theodicy, which CurtC alluded to. It comes into play explicitly in heaven. We’re probably all familiar with the trilemma, but one claim of its resolution is that free will is a greater gift than bliss (substitute scientific inquiry and Sam Harris and Dawkins would actually agree). However, if there is no free will in heaven, then we are being punished for our obediance. If there is free will in heaven and those involved merely choose not to sin, then why administer the “test” of life on Earth in the first place (which by definition some will fail), why not just determine those that would pass beforehand and deliver them to eternal life in order to stop their suffering on Earth? Or subtly alter those that would fail so their personality will remain intact but their capacity for sin is removed? If a soul is a cohesive thing, then admitting their “soul” into heaven before the personality hits age 2 would guarantee it, wouldn’t it? Isn’t the point of death an arbitrary point to determine whether someone is consigned to eternal torture or eternal bliss? My version of heaven does not have “justice” as a higher virtue than “mercy”, nor does it lack Hitler. No matter what crime is committed on Earth, eternal punishment is infinitely disproportionate to it. God may intervene in order to end lives according to the Bible, why not intervene before the sin in order to grant eternal bliss? Given the correct circumstances (if necessary, the exact same situations and dispositions), we would do the exact same thing. Sins are forgiven on Earth and everyone is born with original sin, so to say that they could choose to forego sin for all eternity in heaven without there being any environmental effect on them preventing them from sin seems implausible. Not to mention that it is entirely possible for sins to cause no grievance in heaven as the eternal pleasure train is unimpeded. Then there’s the issue of unfair advantage of those that died before reaching the age of consensual sin, where if it hadn’t been due to the action or inaction of another actor, one is admitted into heaven… Despite the possibility of damnation otherwise. Finally, there’s the personal issue I have with the notion of heaven. In Catholic dogma, based on Matthew 22:30, one doesn’t reunite with one’s family. There would be insurmountable problems with the notion of marriage in heaven in my view. What of the couple where both members had children with previous spouses that had died early in each marriage? I only found that out in religious studies: by that point I was a deist that entertained the notion of God as a fifth dimensional force or cartoonist, but after the possibility of reunification with my family in heaven was shattered, I no longer particularly cared. It’s something that isn’t focused on very often and certainly wasn’t revealed to me when I was younger. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/94 "2012-04-02T06:13:12Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > But it still can’t beat [Secular Heaven](http://dresdencodak.com/2005/11/29/secular-heaven/). Maybe it’s just for April Fool’s, but I just clicked that & got a redirect to [http://dresdencodak.com/cinema2.html](http://dresdencodak.com/cinema2.html) --which is perhaps more like the Christian afterlife as I have imagined it. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/95 "2012-04-02T14:19:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except of course your weren’t actually introduced to any dead men and saying that Heaven as described wouldn’t be boring or unpleasant is just as empty an assertion as your claims of talking to dead people. Hahaha thank you ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/96 "2012-04-02T14:37:05Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Heavily depends what sect we’re talking about. Modern popular view where you will want for nothing and more or less everyone not named Hitler gets in? Well, everything is perfect for you! If you want a challenge, you get a challenge, if you want to eat chocolate and not get fat, you get that too! It’s not hard to see why it’s great. Which makes me wonder, is sin on Earth still sin in Heaven? Gluttony is gluttony, does it matter where you do it? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/97 "2012-04-02T14:54:54Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > How does one divorce evil and suffering? Of one is suffering (as opposed tomere discomfort) isn’t there some evil behind it? Responsible for it? Nope. The vast majority of suffering occurs without a culprit. It’s a product of our physical and mental characteristics, and our environment. …unless you’re saying you believe suffering was ultimately caused by the Curse (i.e. god’s annoyance of adam and eve eating a fruit). Is that your position? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/98 "2012-04-02T16:01:27Z")
> [@fifty-six](#): > > If there is a heaven I sure do not wanna go there. > > I can not imagine the horrors of spending eternity with born again Christians. When I see something like this, I picture a person standing at the Pearly Gates beside St. Peter, inquiring about admission. The benevolent Saint is pointing to something displayed on a computer monitor, while slowly shaking his head from side to side. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544/99 "2012-04-03T21:49:19Z")
My brief summary of what I recall of Mormon heaven (and yes, you all know the mormons are right, stop kidding yourselves): 1. It’s subdivided into three parts. The best part will be located on earth, which will have undergone renovations in the meanwhile. Other people will be elsewhere, physical location unspecified. 2. In the best heaven you’re allowed to have families, which may or not mean becoming gods and creating your own planetloads of people to mess with. All kids who died under the age of eight get in, and also mormons who have undergone the proper rituals can get in, which includes being in a celestial marriage; most mormons aren’t aware that ‘celestial marriage’ originally and unambiguously meant ‘polygamous marriage’. Regardless of age of death everyone anywhere in the afterlife will appear to be in their twenties or so. Unmarried persons who get in (the kids) will be married there - one gathers whether they want to or not. The place is also presided over by God personally. Apparently it’s supposed to be a pretty nice place, possibly due to his personal emissions. 3. The second-best heaven is for the pretty good people, including good non-mormons and mormons who didn’t jump throught the hoops or otherwise make the cut. You’re not allowed to visit best heaven, but they can visit you - like prison! You’re also not allowed to get married or have children or families - any non-celestial marriages will have been dissolved, presumably forcibly. The place is presided over by Jesus. 4. The third-best heaven is for, well, nearly everybody else. The only way _not_ to qualify for it is to deny Christ once you have a full and certain knowledge of him, and most people claim it’s nearly impossible to get such knowledge on earth. So pretty much only Satan and the third of angels who lost the ‘war’ (read: vote) in heaven prior to earth’s creation. And maybe Judas; he’s debatable. But everybody else is here - murderers, rapists, jaywalkers. The place is run by the Holy Ghost, the member of the trinity so unimpressive that nobody bothers to mention his name. (He is considered to be a distinct entity.) People in here can be visited by persons in the above two heavens, but are again not allowed to leave. Families are again verboten, and there may be other additional restrictions that I don’t recall. What else do we know about the specifics of these ‘heavens’? Puffy clouds? Harps? Valium drips? Unknown. The only bit of data we have is that an early mormon prophet described them as being better than we can possibly imagine, which I interpret as meaning that, at the least, pre-scored toilet paper will be available. Personally I’m hoping they let us have Skyrim in our cells - a guy can dream, can’t he? Regarding free will in heaven, the line I’ve heard is that the only people who get into heaven are those who would freely choose not to do bad things. (Presumably in mormo-vision that’s amended to “and/or won’t be given the freedom to try” - note that we explicitly have murderers in the third-tier heaven. I wasn’t kidding about the cells.) Generalizing back to all heavens following this model, I gotta say that doesn’t sound much like “free will” to me - it sounds like being a wind-up toy. (Or on celestial valium.) The only way I can imagine to reconcile _actual_ free will with such a model would be to presume that if you break the rules, you get demoted. That sort of flies in the face of “final” judgement, but hey, it wouldn’t be real religion without internal contradiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-great-about-the-christian-heaven/610544.md?page=4)