# What's so holy about Toledo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559 "2014-11-13T20:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/1 "2014-11-13T20:19:00Z")
Why not ‘Holy Xenia!’? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/2 "2014-11-13T20:45:15Z")
Stand in front of El Greco’s \*View of Toledo \*some time and you’ll know why. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/3 "2014-11-13T20:58:39Z")
For that matter, what’s holy about smoke? I could understand “Holy Cow” if it were coined in India, but the expression is pretty cleartly American. "Holy Moly’ actually makes sense, though: > **[Moly (herb)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moly_(herb))** > > Moly (Greek: μῶλυ, \[mɔːly\]) is a magical herb mentioned in book 10 of Homer's Odyssey. > In Homer's Odyssey, Hermes gave > his herb to Odysseus to protect him from Circe's poison and magic when he went to her palace to rescue his friends. These friends came together with him from the island Aeolus after they escaped from the Laestrygonians. > According to the "New History" of Ptolemy Hephaestion (according to Photius) and Eustathius, the plant mentioned by Homer grew from the blood of the Giant Pic... ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/4 "2014-11-13T21:43:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > For that matter, what’s holy about smoke? Well there is [this.](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130313141933-02-white-smoke-pope-0313-horizontal-gallery.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/5 "2014-11-13T21:48:17Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Well there is [this.](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130313141933-02-white-smoke-pope-0313-horizontal-gallery.jpg) That’s not Holy. Just Significant. The frankincense we burned when I was an altar boy arguably had a better claim to sanctity. Although not much. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/6 "2014-11-13T21:59:55Z")
Expressions like this are often euphemisms to avoid saying something blasphemous, sometimes humorously so. Remember the old Batman show where Robin would always say “Holy [\](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exclamations_by_Robin) Batman!” I don’t have a suggestion of where Holy Toledo may have come from. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/7 "2014-11-13T22:07:17Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Expressions like this are often euphemisms to avoid saying something blasphemous, sometimes humorously so. Remember the old Batman show where Robin would always say “Holy [\](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exclamations_by_Robin) Batman!” The lampshading of which was the only genuinely funny moment in _Batman & Robin_. (“Holy rusted metal, Batman!” “…what?” “It’s rusted metal, full of holes!”) ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/8 "2014-11-13T23:17:54Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The lampshading of which was the only genuinely funny moment in _Batman & Robin_. > > (“Holy rusted metal, Batman!” “…what?” “It’s rusted metal, full of holes!”) Nitpick: “Batman Forever.” The one with Val Kilmer and with Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face and Jim Carrey as the Riddler. ---
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/9 "2014-11-13T23:49:27Z")
Found at [The Phrase Finder:](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/792.html) “holy Toledo! - This exclamation of surprise refers to Toledo, Spain, which became one of the great centers of Christian culture after its liberation from the Moors in 1085. Its thirteenth-century Gothic cathedral, one of the largest in Europe, is the seat of the Cardinal Archbishop of Spain.” - “Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins” by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/10 "2014-11-13T23:49:59Z")
My favorite euphemism is “Holy owned and operated!” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/11 "2014-11-14T00:48:00Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > Found at [The Phrase Finder:](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/792.html) > > “holy Toledo! - This exclamation of surprise refers to Toledo, Spain, which became one of the great centers of Christian culture after its liberation from the Moors in 1085. Its thirteenth-century Gothic cathedral, one of the largest in Europe, is the seat of the Cardinal Archbishop of Spain.” > > - “Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins” by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). Totally useless info. U.S. in origin, probably not used much before WWII, and probably would be Toledo OH rather than Spain as most people in the US knew little about Spain. Just a form of swearing–Holy Cow, Holy Moly, Holy _insert noun here_. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/12 "2014-11-14T01:04:27Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > For that matter, what’s holy about smoke? > > I could understand “Holy Cow” if it were coined in India, but the expression is pretty cleartly American. > > "Holy Moly’ actually makes sense, though: > > [Moly (herb) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moly_(herb)) _Holy Mol(e)y_ as an exclamation first came to my attention in comic books. Captain Marvel. It also goes back to the 1940s or so. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/13 "2014-11-14T03:58:36Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Totally useless info. > > U.S. in origin, probably not used much before WWII, and probably would be Toledo OH rather than Spain as most people in the US knew little about Spain. > > Just a form of swearing–Holy Cow, Holy Moly, Holy _insert noun here_. Public education was much better in those days and children actually learned something because the teachers weren’t unionized ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/14 "2014-11-14T04:01:56Z")
My guess: Just as “Holy Moly!” forms a comforting rhyme, so do the first four syllables of “Holy Toledo!”… ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/15 "2014-11-14T04:30:00Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I don’t have a suggestion of where Holy Toledo may have come from. In April 1065 Emir Al-Muqtadir of Zaragoza besieged Barbastro, aided by 500 Sevillian knights. The governor, Count Ermengol II of Urgel, was killed in a sortie, and a few days later the city fell, whereupon the Spanish and French garrison was put to the sword, thus bringing an end to Pope Alexander II’s crusade against the Moors of Spain. Impossible to prove the reference but it sounds like “This is a blitzkrieg” or “This will end up like Vietnam” or “these enemy are worse than \”… Moors, Huns, Vikings, Nazies, for examples… But its also an expression of humility, for some reason… Perhaps the meaning is more along the lines of … “We might be christian but that didn’t help Toledo… For god to help, we’d have to be MORE holy than Toledo … so we’d better handle this ourselves”. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/16 "2014-11-14T04:49:47Z")
Oops, the sentence lost the clarifying part… Its surely that Toledo, Spain, 1065 , _is_ the Holy Toledo being referred to. They may also consider its 1085 recovery as a miracle… and somewhat important to the history of Spain in general… it was an important cultural and educational centre, as many religions had their colleges their… such a place was keeping light on during the “dark ages”… One part of the lesson was good vs bad, and tolerance and multiculturalism vs blood thirsty intolerance… as one of the strengths of Holy Toledo was its multiculturalism … BTW a lesson perhaps not demonstrated in later periods of Spain’s history… I can imagine pacifists would try to counter blood thirsty propaganda by referring back to Toledo. Conclusion: whether its the sacking or its rebuilding, the expression probably refers to the “we are going to have work miracles” aspect of Toledo’s history still… which ever part of the story is referred to. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/17 "2014-11-14T04:56:03Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Public education was much better in those days and children actually learned something because the teachers weren’t unionized Teacher unionization is a bit off topic for this thread and starts getting into the realm of politics. Let’s not continue this hijack. If you want to discuss this topic, please do so in another thread in the appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-holy-about-toledo/704559/18 "2014-11-14T09:04:02Z")
If it was Holy Xenia, would Goddess have sent that F5 to flatten most of it in April, 74? As for why it’s Holy Toledo, I thought it had something to do with Tony Packo’s.