# What's so scary about "Carmina Burana"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 10, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471 "2005-11-10T21:00:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/1 "2005-11-10T21:00:09Z")
Carl Orff’s “Carmina Burana” ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina\_Burana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana)) was used as the theme for _The Omen_ ([http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/)) in 1976, and has since developed into a stock cliche of horror films and Goth music. I always assumed the lyrics, if I could understand them, would be really scary. Guess not. I found an English translation of the lyrics (originally from a 13th-Century poetry collection): [http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html](http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html) A sample: > [@](#): > > O Fortune, > like the moon > you are changeable, > ever waxing > and waning; > hateful life > first oppresses > and then soothes > as fancy takes it; > poverty > and power > it melts them like ice. > > Fate - monstrous > and empty, > you whirling wheel, > you are malevolent, > well-being is vain > and always fades to nothing, > shadowed > and veiled > you plague me too; > now through the game > I bring my bare back > to your villainy. > > Fate is against me > in health > and virtue, > driven on > and weighted down, > always enslaved. > So at this hour > without delay > pluck the vibrating strings; > since Fate > strikes down the string man, > everyone weep with me! Very depressing, but what makes it scary? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/2 "2005-11-10T21:07:37Z")
Well, O Fortuna might be scary, but most of Carmina Burana is not scary at all. It’s actually quite beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/3 "2005-11-10T21:11:19Z")
It’s scary because it’s associated with _The Omen_. It’s not objective; it’s just that people connect it with a horror film and it gains that reputation. It’s the same thing with _Tubular Bells_. It’s associated with _The Exorcist_\* and gets a scary reaction, even though the song itself is not particularly scary. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/4 "2005-11-10T21:11:57Z")
It’s not so much the words as the texture of the music. It’s very gothic, and any time you have a choir singing in Latin, there’s a creepiness to it. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/5 "2005-11-10T21:23:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s scary because it’s associated with _The Omen_. It’s not objective; it’s just that people connect it with a horror film and it gains that reputation You’re right in a general sense, that there can be characteristics of music that acquire external associations through subsequent cultural developments - but you can’t pin it on one film. Otherwise, because I’ve never seen The Omen, I’d be going ‘huh?’ > [@](#): > > It’s very gothic, and any time you have a choir singing in Latin, there’s a creepiness to it. I’ve no idea what you mean by gothic, and it’s certainly not true that the language has this effect - there’s plenty of music to contradict your statement, and in any case I’d wager that most people couldn’t tell you what language Carmina Burana was in, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/6 "2005-11-10T21:30:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Carl Orff’s “Carmina Burana” ( > Very depressing, but what makes it scary? Nothing, but then I didn’t know anything about it being used in the Omen since I haven’t seen it. It’s in Latin, and that has some connections to Catholic Mass which in turn might make its way into a horror movie about the anti-christ. In the media I associate Carmina Burana with sword fighting movies. Marc ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/7 "2005-11-10T21:34:08Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’ve no idea what you mean by gothic, and it’s certainly not true that the language has this effect - there’s plenty of music to contradict your statement, and in any case I’d wager that most people couldn’t tell you what language Carmina Burana was in, anyway. **MGibson** explained it better than I can. By gothic, I mean… well, I have no idea what I mean. But it’s true! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/8 "2005-11-10T21:34:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s scary because it’s associated with _The Omen_. It’s not objective; it’s just that people connect it with a horror film and it gains that reputation. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen _The Omen_, so I can’t recall hearing it in that movie. The movie I immediately associate it with is _Excalibur_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/9 "2005-11-10T21:34:37Z")
That isn’t _Carmina Bur_ana in **The Omen** –it’s all original (and award-winning) music by the late Jerry Goldsmith (who may have been inspired by Orff). ---
**Author:** ![YaWanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bbce88/32.png) [@YaWanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YaWanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/10 "2005-11-10T21:37:38Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > It’s been a long time since I’ve seen _The Omen_, so I can’t recall hearing it in that movie. The movie I immediately associate it with is _Excalibur_. Me, too, and I don’t find it scary - to me it is, oh, crusadic (probably not a real word) and inspiring. Sorta like Wagner’s _Ride of the Valkyries_. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/11 "2005-11-10T21:42:12Z")
In a similar fashion, I’ve heard that “Swan Lake” was thought to have associations with horror (yes!), which is why it’s used as the opening credit music for Tod Browning’s 1930 **Dracula** (it’s also heard at a performance during the film – the only music in the original film, at least until the recent Glass score). So I suppose Carmina Burana could, in its turn, be seen as at least anxious. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/12 "2005-11-10T21:42:56Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > That isn’t _Carmina Bur_ana in **The Omen** –it’s all original (and award-winning) music by the late Jerry Goldsmith (who may have been inspired by Orff). I guess you’re right – according to this - [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/soundtrack](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/soundtrack) - the theme song is “Ave Satani” by Jerry Goldsmith. Now why was I thinking “Carmina Burana”? Is Goldsmith’s tune set to the same music with different lyrics? Where can I find the lyrics for “Ava Satani”? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/13 "2005-11-10T21:55:17Z")
Since few people can understand the lyrics, clearly the lyrics are irrelevant to why it’s scary. You can get midis of the Carmina [here](http://www.botproductions.com/music/carmina.html). ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/14 "2005-11-10T23:01:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I guess you’re right – according to this - [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/soundtrack](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/soundtrack) - the theme song is “Ave Satani” by Jerry Goldsmith. Now why was I thinking “Carmina Burana”? Is Goldsmith’s tune set to the same music with different lyrics? Where can I find the lyrics for “Ava Satani”? Not sure where you can find the lyrics, but “Ava Satani” is a much darker, more brooding piece than “O Fortuna”. It was also nominated for an Oscar for Best Song (it lost, though Goldsmith’s score won–the first Oscar for a horror movie score). I would’ve loved to see the Oscar ceremony where a choir actually sang “Hail Satan” on national TV. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/15 "2005-11-10T23:29:51Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Since few people can understand the lyrics, clearly the lyrics are irrelevant to why it’s scary. Exactly. What’s the visceral reaction to hearing _O, Fortuna_? Obviously, my reactions are bogged down with pop culture associations, but–trying to put those aside as much as I can-- simply, it’s just a very tense, powerful song. Sweeping changes of dynamics, explosive timpani. Minor tonality. Almost no harmonic movement. The piece just sits there on the D minor, with the motif building and building from a barely audible whisper, to a sudden wall of sound echoed in the next “verse” with the orchestra at full blast, voices open and remaining tense over the D minor pedal point. You want the harmony to move somewhere, anywhere, but it just sits there pounding you with its stacatto rhythms and slow melodic movement upward. I mean, it’s clearly a very unnerving song. I’m not sure if I’d say it’s spooky, but it definitely gets the adrenaline going and builds a sense of expectation. But then, at the end, you finally get some release when the brass open up, the cymbals start clashing, the kettledrums are a-rolling, and the chord moves up to an A major, ending the song, not only on a major chord, but on the V chord of the piece, which sort of–at least to me–implies a sense of hope or triumph or…well, whatever it is, it’s something good. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/16 "2005-11-11T00:07:03Z")
Howard Shore did something much like this in FOTR, “The Bridge of Khazad-Dum.” He had a chorus of 90 men singing in Tolien’s Dwarvish language. Very stirring. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/17 "2005-11-11T00:12:52Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > any time you have a choir singing in Latin, there’s a creepiness to it. :dubious: I’m old enough to remember when the Catholic mass was in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/18 "2005-11-11T00:13:52Z")
It’s the same thing that’s so “Christmassy” about the fourth movement of Beethoven’s Ninth. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/19 "2005-11-11T01:12:40Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > :dubious: > I’m old enough to remember when the Catholic mass was in Latin. Your point being? There’s just something about percussive and brutal orchestral music, with a Latin choir, that evokes a sort of gothic feel. John Barry’s score for The Lion in Winter is a good example, and probably is inspired by Orff. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471/20 "2005-11-11T01:55:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Very depressing, but what makes it scary? I don’t think it’s scarry. Besides, when I associate it with a movie, it’s with “Excalibur”. I didn’t often watch horror movies. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-scary-about-carmina-burana/330471.md?page=2)