# What's so wrong with Kerry?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 6, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629 "2004-04-06T21:20:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/61 "2004-04-07T18:03:47Z")
> [@Machetero](#):
>
> Democrats do suck at the national level.
How so?
> [@](#):
>
> And I wouldn’t piss on a true believer in them if they were on fire. I will vote the more guns since I do believe in the all of the Bill of Rights and do hold the 2nd most dear.
Oh, so you’re in a militia?😉
> [@](#):
>
> As for animal torture and more pollution, I won’t vote for the canidate that has the supporters that believe in such extremist positions (as evident by your torture and pollution remarks) on animal rights and the enviroment on his side because they are against me on a business and cultural level.
Yes, clean air, potable water, protecting what little wilderness we have left, and not torturing animals is pretty “extremist”, isn’t it?
> [@](#):
>
> This board has opened my eyes, after coming from another loaded with ‘Bush is god types’ that I hated. It’s help me choose my lesser enemy for re-election. The leftwingnuts are the greatest danger to me and my beliefs as well as the least respected and most hated by me. It’s like allying with Stalin do defeat Hitler. ☹
Dude, Kerry is NOT left-wing. Not even close. Nader, maybe. Kucinich, maybe. Sharpton, maybe. Kerry? No. If you would change your vote because some liberals on an internet message board pissed you off, that doesn’t say much for your critical reasoning skills. In all honesty, though, Bush sounds like just the kind of guy for you. You don’t get much more right-wing than Bush. If you want to have assault weapons, allow big business to plunder the economy with scant reprisals, and undo all the progress that’s ever been made in protecting the environment, he’s definitely the guy to do it. It’s unbelievable to me that anyone would _want_ that, but I guess everyone’s entitled to his opinion.
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### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/62 "2004-04-07T18:11:23Z")
> [@blowero](#):
>
> Dude, Kerry is NOT left-wing. Not even close. Nader, maybe. Kucinich, maybe. Sharpton, maybe. Kerry? No.
Whoa. Kucinich… maybe? _Maybe?_ Jeebus, what **do** you call left-wing? 😉
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/63 "2004-04-07T18:26:21Z")
I wasn’t implying that they _weren’t_ left-wing. I just said “maybe” because I was actually trying to stave off a sidetrack where people might say. “Well, Sharpton [Nader, Kucinich] isn’t really blah, blah, blibbity, bling…” Obviously, I was unsuccessful, since you sidetracked it anyway.
The point was that Kerry is further to the right than any of those guys.
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/64 "2004-04-07T18:30:32Z")
And yes, _of course_ Kucinich is left-wing.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/65 "2004-04-07T19:09:27Z")
> [@Candid Gamera](#):
>
> I’m voting for Kerry … I’m a registered Democrat, but I tend to side with Republicans, I find. Dubya … eh. Words cannot express my frustration with the Patriot Act.
You did know that Kerry voted in favor of the Patriot Act, do you not?
As far as Kerry being right-wing, I wouldn’t say that. Neither does the [_National Journal_,](http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0204/022704nj1.htm)who ranked him as the most liberal member of the Senate - further to the left even than Edwards.
And Americans for Democratic Action rank Kerry [even more liberal than Kucinich,](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040227-111241-3716r.htm) with a 92 lifetime score.
I can’t imagine anyone further to the left than Karl Marx referring to Kerry as “right-wing”. Although, compared to some on the SDMB…
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/66 "2004-04-07T19:18:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> You did know that Kerry voted in favor of the Patriot Act, do you not?
And according to the CNN breakdown of candidate positions, he backs letting it expire without Congressional approval. I don’t mind my choice of politician making a mistake, as long as they fix it later. 😉 I won’t say the Patriot Act was a good idea at the time… but it was _reasonable_ at the time, considering the overall climate.
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### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/67 "2004-04-07T19:19:37Z")
Hmmm, you left this out of your summary of that link, I can’t imagine why.
> [@](#):
>
> Their high scores may be due, in part, to having missed so many votes while campaigning last year. Of the 62 votes the magazine tracked, Mr. Kerry missed 37 and Mr. Edwards missed 22. Both men usually returned for the most critical party votes, which probably boosted their liberal credentials.
Maybe we could have actual examples of what makes him so egregiously liberal. Is he for banning guns? Is he against any use of military force ever?
I mean, in three years, George Bush has raised taxes 63 times. That seems pretty liberal to me, right?
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/68 "2004-04-07T19:33:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> I can’t imagine anyone further to the left than Karl Marx referring to Kerry as “right-wing”. Although, compared to some on the SDMB…
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Shodan, you need to lay off the crack. Who said Kerry was “right-wing”? :eek: 😕
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/69 "2004-04-07T20:03:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Both men usually returned for the most critical party votes, which probably boosted their liberal credentials.
Which says nothing against my point that Kerry is a liberal. Quite the opposite - when Kerry thinks a vote is important, he votes liberal. On the votes he doesn’t care about, he still usually votes liberal, but not as lockstep. QED - Kerry is a liberal when he thinks it counts.
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Maybe we could have actual examples of what makes him so egregiously liberal. Is he for banning guns? Is he against any use of military force ever?
Read the links for discussion of the votes leading to the ranking. Keep in mind that the ADA rating is a lifetime rating, and is therefore less likely to be affected by Kerry neglecting to vote because he is out campaigning.
> [@Apos](#):
>
> I mean, in three years, George Bush has raised taxes 63 times. That seems pretty liberal to me, right?
Well, you are correct that liberals generally want to raise taxes, and conservatives want to cut them. And certainly Kerry has already promised to raise taxes if elected. But a centerpiece of Bush’s economic policy is the tax cuts he credits with our recovery from the recession he inherited from the Clinton administration, which Kerry wants to repeal. Kerry wants to increase some other taxes - his belief is that this will create jobs.
So if your objection to Bush is that he raised taxes, Kerry is not going to be any more conservative - far less so, in fact, since Kerry favors large spending increases that will far more than offset his tax increases. So far, Kerry has proposed about $1.7 trillion over ten years in spending increases, which he says he will pay for by rescinding the Bush tax cuts, to the tune of about $650 billion. (Washington Post, March 24, 2004). So we would wind up with big tax increases, a huge increase in the size and complexity of the federal government, a stalled recovery, and a bigger deficit.
Kerry’s best hope, if elected, would be that the Republican-controlled Congress will block all his initiatives on spending and tax increases. Not sure they can do that in all circumstances, as Kerry wants to send more troops to Iraq, increase spending on health care for veterans, and so forth. So he doesn’t even have the usual liberal excuse of cutting military spending to pay for increases in domestic spending.
Which points out a lot of “what is wrong with Kerry”. The best you can hope for is that he can’t do what he says.
(on preview)
**blowero** , you claimed that Kerry was further to the right than Kucinich. According to the ADA and _National Journal_, you are talking out your ass.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/70 "2004-04-07T20:26:05Z")
> [@wonderwench](#):
>
> In addition, his disgusting behavior in 1971 should disqualify him as a candidate.
Interestingly, I find his behavior in 1971 to be an enormous vote in his favor. He served in the military, then after leaving the military, protested against what he viewed (and what the consensus of history seems to view) as an unjust war. So he wasn’t a draft dodger. Nor was he a jingoistic warhawk. What course of action could be more admirable?
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/71 "2004-04-07T21:05:23Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> Interestingly, I find his behavior in 1971 to be an enormous vote in his favor. He served in the military, then after leaving the military, protested against what he viewed (and what the consensus of history seems to view) as an unjust war. So he wasn’t a draft dodger. Nor was he a jingoistic warhawk. What course of action could be more admirable?
This is the same **wonderwench** who thinks that we shouldn’t be asking questions about 9/11 while we are engaged in war.
As a side note, reading this thread to get caught up, the fact that people are more concerned about a ban on assault weapons than laws restricting rights and invading sovereign nations in a disastrous attempt to (one can only imagine) get more terrorists pissed off at us is frightening. O\_o I mean, I’ve heard of loving guns, but…
The basic gist of this thread is: “Kerry is evil because he is a liberal.”
Doesn’t do much to convince me, but some people are more partisan than others.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/72 "2004-04-07T21:07:53Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> So he wasn’t a draft dodger. Nor was he a jingoistic warhawk. What course of action could be more admirable?
$5 says **wonderwench’s** response will be “Bli,d uncompromising support for the United States.” :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/73 "2004-04-07T21:27:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> **blowero** , you claimed that Kerry was further to the right than Kucinich. According to the ADA and _National Journal_, you are talking out your ass.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
This is a sidetrack that has nothing to do with whether or not I ever said Kerry was “right wing”.
I repeat my question: Exactly who said that Kerry is “right-wing”? You DO understand what the word _further_ means, don’t you?
Helium is heavi **ER** than hydrogen, but neither is heavy.
Could you at least try _a little_ not to completely misconstrue every argument?
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/74 "2004-04-07T21:36:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Well, you are correct that liberals generally want to raise taxes, and conservatives want to cut them. And certainly Kerry has already promised to raise taxes if elected. But a centerpiece of Bush’s economic policy is the tax cuts he credits with our recovery from the recession he inherited from the Clinton administration, which Kerry wants to repeal. Kerry wants to increase some other taxes - his belief is that this will create jobs.
Actually, what Kerry wants to do is cut the part of the tax cuts on the richest folks…I believe those making over $200,000 per year. And, he want to keep the tax cuts for everyone else and even have some further targetted tax cuts to create jobs.
Bush’s tax cuts were so pathetic in their targetting that, as economists like Krugman pointed out, the cost per **claimed** created-job was ridiculously high. (It would have been considerably more efficient to just hire people onto the government payroll.) And, of course, there is no evidence that they have lived up to their claims in terms of job creation. I don’t think one could have devised a better plan to balloon the deficit as much while creating so little economic stimulus if one had made this their goal!
> [@](#):
>
> So we would wind up with big tax increases, a huge increase in the size and complexity of the federal government, a stalled recovery, and a bigger deficit.
Right…Like under Clinton. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/75 "2004-04-07T21:38:09Z")
> [@blowero](#):
>
> Could you at least try _a little_ not to completely misconstrue every argument?
But misconstruing arguments is his specialty!
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### Author:  [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/76 "2004-04-07T21:40:32Z")
> [@jshore](#):
>
> But misconstruing arguments is his specialty!
True. I guess it’s like asking a duck not to quack.😃
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/77 "2004-04-08T00:05:13Z")
Misconstruing arguments?
> [@blowero](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > And I wouldn’t piss on a true believer in them if they were on fire. I will vote the more guns since I do believe in the all of the Bill of Rights and do hold the 2nd most dear.
>
> Oh, so you’re in a militia?😉
>
> Hope you find a nice candidate who runs on a platform of more guns, more animal torture, and more pollution.
> [@blowero](#):
>
> Dude, Kerry is NOT left-wing. Not even close. Nader, maybe. Kucinich, maybe. Sharpton, maybe. Kerry? No.
> [@blowero](#):
>
> And yes, of course Kucinich is left-wing.
So it goes from “maybe” to “of course”. And your assertion that Kerry is “further to the right” than Kucinich is as idiotic as it has ever been.
This is moronic. You people either don’t realize how stupid you are sounding, or you know and don’t care. Or else you are so used to spouting off in front of others of your kind who don’t challenge your half-witted reactive Bush-bashing that you have no realization of how dumb you sound.
You made an argument - that Kerry is to the right of even the far left like Kucinich. This argument is horseshit, according to the ADA, the _National Journal_, and other organizations with at least a nodding acquaintance with reality. And all you can come up with is assinine crap about smoking crack.
If you ever want to work on some discussion that is not a far Left circle jerk, let me know.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/78 "2004-04-08T00:11:55Z")
You missed the part where Blowero explained that he used the word “maybe” to diffuse a possible mini-debate on the topic?
Good reading comprehension, Shodan.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/79 "2004-04-08T00:46:25Z")
On the “O’Franken Factor” today, Al Franken presented a nice debunking of the core flip flip charges against Kerry, as presented in wonderfully right-wing fashion by Sean Hannity. [Enjoy it here.](http://www.ofrankenfactor.com/) Perhaps those making the assertion that Kerry flip flops could specify a bit more precisely what they are talking about in the future.
Surely **Shodan** will start a pit thread soon, where he can more appropriately express how moronic, stupid and masturbatory those who disagree with Bush are. Or perhaps he might model more appropriate behavior here, so that we might aspire to improve ourselves.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-so-wrong-with-kerry/238629/80 "2004-04-08T00:52:21Z")
Mastubatory? O\_o
Oh, the circlejerk bit. Yes, that is a keen debating tactic used commonly by some types. I like to call it the, “Why does everyone disagree with me? It must be some conspiracy. You’re all wrong. I hate you” gambit.
All I’ll say is this - Democrats? Getting head in the Oval Office. Republicans? Duct taping tarps over statues of the Lady Justice.
Unfortunately, I’m still a Republican, but you can see which side is more appealing.
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