# What's some good natural supplements (no matter how exotic)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163 "2004-07-02T03:10:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LuckySevens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@LuckySevens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LuckySevens)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/1 "2004-07-02T03:10:52Z")
I’ve been looking into taking some of those ‘anti-oxident’ herbal potions. I hear really good things about them, anyone know anything about some good herbal supplements that improve ones quality of life? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/2 "2004-07-02T17:27:30Z")
A good place to start would be Quackwatch’s [“Dietary Supplements,” Herbs, and Hormones](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/suppsherbs.html) page, since the whole field of supplements is rife with quackery. Of particular interest to you will be their [page on antioxidants](http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/antioxidants.html): > [@](#): > > There is widespread scientific agreement that eating adequate amounts of fruits and vegetables can help lower the incidence of cardiovascular disease and certain cancers. With respect to antioxidants and other phytochemicals, the key question is whether supplementation has been proven to do more good than harm. So far, the answer is no, which is why the FDA will not permit any of these substances to be labeled or marketed with claims that they can prevent disease. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/3 "2004-07-02T17:53:46Z")
Quackwatch is a good site, but so is [SupplementWatch](http://www.supplementwatch.com). Read 'em both. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/4 "2004-07-02T18:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > There is widespread scientific agreement that eating adequate amounts of fruits and vegetables can help lower the incidence of cardiovascular disease and certain cancers. With respect to antioxidants and other phytochemicals, the key question is whether supplementation has been proven to do more good than harm. **So far, the answer is no…** Of course, you good skeptics who only believe in evidence-based medicine have some supporting documentation for this statement? You couldn’t be taking what that site says on faith, could you? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/5 "2004-07-02T19:06:04Z")
Issue with [Kava Kava](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/alerts/kava/). Issues with [St. John’s Wort](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/662147.stm). Issues with [Saw Palmetto](http://www.priory.com/med/saw.htm). St. John’s Wort may actually be helpful to some people, I don’t really know enough about the others to say if they can help or not. However, just about every site says to **Consult your Doctor**. And that is the best advice that any of us can give you. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/6 "2004-07-02T19:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Lamar Mundane wrote:_ > You couldn’t be taking what that site says on faith, could you? Well, let’s see… that one page I linked to has the following footnotes: > [@](#): > > 1 Stampfer MJ and others. Vitamin consumption and the risk of coronary disease in women. New England Journal of Medicine 328:1444-1449, 1993. > 2 Rimm EB and others. Vitamin consumption and the risk of coronary disease in men. New England Journal of Medicine 328:1450-1456, 1993. > 3 Alpha-Tocopherol, Beta Carotene Cancer Prevention Study Group. The effect of vitamin E and beta carotene on the incidence of lung cancer and other cancers in male smokers. New England Journal of Medicine 330:1029-1035, 1994. > 4 Rapola JM and others. Randomised trial of alpha-tocopherol and beta-carotene supplements on incidence of major coronary events in men with previous myocardial infarction. Lancet 349:1715-1720, 1997. > 5 Greenberg ER and others. A clinical trial of antioxidant vitamins to prevent colorectal cancer. New England Journal of Medicine 331:141-147, 1994. > 6 Hennekens CH and others. Lack of effect of long-term supplementation with beta carotene on the incidence of malignant neoplasms and cardiovascular disease. New England Journal of Medicine 334:1145-1149, 1996. > 7 Omenn GS and others. Effects of a combination of beta carotene and vitamin A on lung cancer and cardiovascular disease. New England Journal of Medicine 334:1150-1155, 1996. > 8 Tardif J-C. Probucol and multivitamins in the prevention of restenosis after coronary angioplasty. New England Journal of Medicine 337:365-372, 1997. > 9 The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients. New England Journal of Medicine 342:145-153, 2000. > 10 Lee IM and others. Beta-carotene supplementation and incidence of cancer and cardiovascular disease: the Women’s Health Study. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 91:2102-2106, 1999. > 11 Hennekens CH and others. Antioxidant vitamins: Benefits not yet proved. New England Journal of Medicine 330:1080-1081, 1994. > 12 Vitamin supplements. The Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics 40:75-77, 1998. > 13 Russel R and others. Why megadoses of beta carotene may promote lung cancer. USDA Agricultural Research Service Food & Nutrition Research Briefs, Jan 1999, p. 1. > 14 Cheung MC and others. Antioxidant supplements block the response of HDL to Simvastatin-niacin therapy in patients with coronary artery disease and low HDL. Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology 21:1320-1326, 2001. > 15 Kuller LH. A time to stop prescribing antioxidant vitamins to prevent and treat heart disease? Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology 21:1253, 2001. > 16 Brown BG and others. Simvastatin and niacin, antioxidant vitamins, or the combination for the prevention of coronary disease. New England Journal of Medicine 345:1583-1592, 2001. > 17 Freedman JE. Antioxidant versus lipid-altering therapy: Some answers, more questions. New England Journal of Medicine 345:1636-1637, 2001. > 18 Tribble DL and others. Antioxidant consumption and risk of coronary heart disease: Emphasis on vitamin C, vitamin E, and beta-carotene. American Heart Association Science Advisory. Circulation 99:591-595, 1999. > 19 Vivekananthan, DP and others. Use of antioxidant vitamins for the prevention of cardiovascular disease: meta-analysis of randomized trials. Lancet 361:2017-2023, 2003. > 20 Routine Vitamin supplementation to prevent cancer and cardiovascular disease. U.S. Preventive Services Task Force > New Topic, 2003 > 21 Smith W and others. Dietary oxidants and age-related maculopathy: The Blue Mountains Study. Ophthalmology 106:761-767, 1999. > 22 Age-Related Eye Disease Study Research Group (AREDS). A randomized, placebo-controlled, clinical trial of high-dose supplementation with vitamins C and E, beta carotene, and zinc for age-related macular degeneration and vision loss: AREDS report no. 8. Archives of Ophthalmology 119:1417-1436, 2001. > 23 Phytochemicals. Drugstore in a salad? Consumer Reports on Health 7:133-135, 1995. > 24 Antioxidant vitamins and zinc for macular degeneration. The Medical Letter 45:45-46, 2003. Did you not bother to even look at the page? “Faith” my \*ss. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/7 "2004-07-02T19:35:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _ultrafilter wrote:_ > Quackwatch is a good site, but so is SupplementWatch. Read 'em both. Interesting, a page at the Quackwatch site says: > [@](#): > > **Nonrecommended Major Sites** > Each of these sites provides a huge amount of information, most or all of which promotes unsubstntiated theories and/or methods. They may be useful to researchers seeking descriptions of these theories and methods from their proponents. However, they should be avoided by persons seeking high-quality information on which to base a health-related decision. > > … > > - SupplementWatch > … Quackwatch is on my list of “highly trusted” sites, so I’ll have an open mind, but I tend to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/8 "2004-07-02T20:00:56Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Issue with [Kava Kava](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/alerts/kava/). > > Issues with [St. John’s Wort](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/662147.stm). > > Issues with [Saw Palmetto](http://www.priory.com/med/saw.htm). > > St. John’s Wort may actually be helpful to some people, I don’t really know enough about the others to say if they can help or not. However, just about every site says to **Consult your Doctor**. And that is the best advice that any of us can give you. Those aren’t antioxidants. Look into folate and neural tube defects and tell me its all quackery. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/9 "2004-07-02T20:21:57Z")
Folate isn’t an antioxidant either and no one here claimed that anything is _all_ quackery. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/10 "2004-07-02T20:28:27Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > Those aren’t antioxidants. > > Look into folate and neural tube defects and tell me its all quackery. Lamar, dear, it’s possible that folate is an antioxidant. I wouldn’t know for sure. However, it’s also an essential vitamin, and one whose role in preventing neural tube defects has been studied - and proven - over and over for years. The same cannot be said for any of the ‘antioxidants of the week’ - studies on them, if you follow the news, tend to be contradictory, and in general they are not shown to be nearly as effective as a healthy diet. After all, QuackWatch just describes the undocumented claims attached to antioxidants. Surely your logic isn’t so poor as to expect us to believe that documented, confirmed evidence of the effectiveness of one particular vitamin is enough to believe in every other chemical that can be dredged up, sight unseen? If you can come up with scientific studies supporting individual antioxidants, you are well-advised to take them. But I don’t see how a study of folate could have any relevance to the effectiveness of, say, lycopene. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/11 "2004-07-03T00:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > With respect to antioxidants and other phytochemicals, the key question is whether supplementation has been proven to do more good than harm. So far, the answer is no, which is why the FDA will not permit any of these substances to be labeled or marketed with claims that they can prevent disease. Actually, No. The Dietary Supplements Health and Education Act of 1994 [DSHEA] requires that the FDA prove that a substance is dangerous before it can be ordered off the shelves. The DSHEA allows a supplement to claim that it may affect a body structure or function, although not that it can treat, cure or prevent a disease. Antioxidants are coming into their own with recent favorable studies, including the new one for adult-onset macular degeneration, lucein. There’s nothing wrong with taking a daily multivitamin/mineral tablet with a daily antioxidant tablet, such as Ocuvite [sup] tm [/sup] or MaxiVision [sup] tm [/sup]. Recent studies indicate that vitamin C may reduce the severity and duration of colds, and the FDA is considering raising the RDA to 250 mg. a day. The vitamins you must be very careful with are the fat-soluble vitamins A and D. Because they are fat-soluble, they are not excreted and are stored in the body. Vitamin E (an antioxidant) is also fat-soluble, but I’m not aware of any instances of overdosing on E. Studies with smokers taking betacarotene have shown detrimental effects, but those were smokers. FWIW (probably not much), I take both a multivitamin/mineral, Ocuvite, vitamins E and C, and calcium supplements. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/12 "2004-07-03T00:29:50Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > Those aren’t antioxidants. Maybe not, but it does add to the the awareness that just because something is natural, doesn’t always mean it is good, or even safe. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/13 "2004-07-03T01:17:22Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Maybe not, but it does add to the the awareness that just because something is natural, doesn’t always mean it is good, or even safe. And just because something is natural doesn’t mean it is useless, unsafe, and quackery, which is what the Quackwatch site assumes. I notice the bio of Dr. Atkins is no longer on the site, he used to be a featured example of quackery. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/14 "2004-07-03T03:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _barbitu8 wrote:_ > Actually, No. The Dietary Supplements Health and Education Act of 1994 [DSHEA] requires that the FDA prove that a substance is dangerous before it can be ordered off the shelves. I think you agree with that paragraph, but you must have misread it. Even though the FDA can’t order “supplements” off the shelves without proof of harm, they _can_ prevent supplement companies from making unproven claims of curing disease. > [@](#): > > _Lamar Mundane wrote:_ > I notice the bio of Dr. Atkins is no longer on the site, he used to be a featured example of quackery. I don’t know about a bio of him, but his diet is still prominently featured in several articles as a poor way to try to lose weight. And if that’s not enough, you can try [Michael Fumento’s site](http://www.fumento.com/fat/atkinsrip.html). ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/15 "2004-07-03T03:14:39Z")
barbitu8, I re-read your paragraph, and now I understand what you were saying, but I think that the FDA _will_ allow a supplement to claim that it cures a disease, if there is sufficient evidence that it really does. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/16 "2004-07-03T06:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by **Lamar Mundane** > > And just because something is natural doesn’t mean it is useless, unsafe, and quackery, which is what the Quackwatch site assumes. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/17 "2004-07-03T18:43:39Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > With respect to antioxidants and other phytochemicals, the key question is whether supplementation has been proven to do more good than harm. So far, the answer is no, which is why the FDA will not permit any of these substances to be labeled or marketed with claims that they can prevent disease. Patently false statement, BTW. [Taxol](http://www.taxol.com/timeli.html) [Camptothecin](http://biotech.icmb.utexas.edu/botany/cpt.html) \*"About 25 percent of prescription drugs dispensed in the United States contain plant extracts or active ingredients derived from plants. Out of a total of 520 new drugs approved for commercial use between 1983 and 1994, 30 were new natural products and 127 were chemically modified natural products. Some prominent plant-based medicines include: Quinine, the anti-malarial drug, from the bark of Cinchona species; Morphine, the analgesic, from the opium poppy; Digoxin, for heart disorders, from Digitalis purpurea; Reserpine, the antihypertensive agent, from Rauwolfia serpentina, traditionally used for snakebites and other ailments; Ephedrine, an anti-asthma agent, from Ephredra sinica; and Tubocurarine, the muscle relaxant, from Chondrodendron and Curarea species, used in the Amazon as the basis for the arrow poison curare. Microorganisms have also been extremely important in drug applications, ushering in the “golden age of antibiotics”: Anti-bacterial agents from Penicillium species; Immunosuppressants, such as the cyclosporins and rapamycin, from Streptomyces species; Cholesterol lowering agents, such as mevastatin and lovastatin, from Penicillium species; Anthelmintics and antiparasitic drugs, such as the ivermectins, from Streptomyces species; and A potential new antidiabetic agent from a Pseudomassaria fungal species found in the Congolese rainforest. The world’s oceans and marine organisms also represent a vast resource for new therapeutic agents, including: The pseudopterosins, with significant analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties, from the Caribbean gorgonian Pseudopterogorgia elisabethae; Manoalide, an anti-inflammatory agent, from the sponge Luffarriella variabilis; and Ziconotide and other new pain killers derived from peptides from cone snail venom. Several key anti-cancer agents have been produced from natural sources; more than 60 percent of cancer drugs on the market are based at least in part on natural products: Vinblastine and vincristine were isolated from the Madagascar periwinkle, Catharanthus rosesus; Etoposide and teniposide are semi-synthetic derivatives of the natural product epipodophyllotoxin; Taxol was initially isolated from the bark of Taxus brevifolia in the northwestern United States; and Several clinically active agents have been derived from camptothecin, isolated from the Chinese ornamental tree Camptotheca acuminata." \* ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/18 "2004-07-03T19:03:01Z")
The cite I was looking for is one that will back up your claim that the Quackwatch site assumes that when something is natural it is useless, unsafe, and quackery. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/19 "2004-07-03T19:26:40Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > barbitu8, I re-read your paragraph, and now I understand what you were saying, but I think that the FDA _will_ allow a supplement to claim that it cures a disease, if there is sufficient evidence that it really does. [http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html](http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html) > [@](#): > > The DSHEA provides for the use of various types of statements on the label of dietary supplements, although claims may not be made about the use of a dietary supplement to diagnose, prevent, mitigate, treat, or cure a specific disease (unless approved under the new drug provisions of the FD&C Act). For example, a product may not carry the claim “cures cancer” or “treats arthritis.” ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163/20 "2004-07-03T19:35:30Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > And just because something is natural doesn’t mean it is useless, unsafe, and quackery, which is what the Quackwatch site assumes. I notice the bio of Dr. Atkins is no longer on the site, he used to be a featured example of quackery. No, obviously not. It just mean it should be subject to rigorous examination for the benefits and risks it poses, as with anything else. After all, beta carotene supplements have been recently linked to lung cancer in smokers. Useless, unsafe quackery? Of course not. But the effects of these things shouldn’t just be assumed. > **[The effect of vitamin E and beta carotene on the incidence of lung cancer and...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8127329/?dopt=Abstract)** > > We found no reduction in the incidence of lung cancer among male smokers after five to eight years of dietary supplementation with alpha-tocopherol or beta carotene. In fact, this trial raises the possibility that these supplements may actually have... Funny thing is, a diet high in these chemicals still appears to prevent cancer. But supplementing them may be a very bad idea. A natural, healthy diet can’t be distilled into a pill. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-some-good-natural-supplements-no-matter-how-exotic/253163.md?page=2)