# What's the answer, transgendered students in high school gym dressing rooms. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083 "2015-09-05T22:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/21 "2015-09-06T00:17:28Z")
I just realized how awful that comes across. It’s due to the fact that I was, in fact, openly ogled by two lesbian girls in high school, and ended up having to hide in a bathroom stall to change. I hated it. We all deserved some privacy is my point. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/22 "2015-09-06T00:24:38Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I just realized how awful that comes across. It’s due to the fact that I was, in fact, openly ogled by two lesbian girls in high school, and ended up having to hide in a bathroom stall to change. I hated it. > > We all deserved some privacy is my point. You dont have to apologize. Its the mindlessly PC folks that should. You were harassed. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/23 "2015-09-06T00:26:28Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > How many of them are there? Transgender people are broken. I know it is suddenly not politically correct to say that, but having the wrong genitals for your sexuality is a flaw. Why does society have to cater to them? I know it isn’t fair that they are “handi-capable” in that way, but it is how it is. > > Society doesn’t cater to people who have unstoppable urges to kill people all the time. It isn’t their fault they have an urge to murder people. Being someone who dresses in the “wrong” clothes isn’t as bad an offense but people dislike them just like they dislike serial killers. > > Maybe using serial killers is a bad example. My point is, why does society have to cater to this particular disability? (being transgender) > > There are so many people it doesn’t cater to because of whatever flaw they have, why this one? It doesn’t cater to people who have the flaw of always wanting to commit petty theft. It doesn’t cater to people who have the flaw of hating to shower. It doesn’t cater to people who have the flaw of enjoying illegal drugs. And so on and so forth. The moral argument would be that when you have an opportunity to help people, at basically no cost to yourself, taking that opportunity is the right thing to do. Why hurt people when you can make their lives better? The practical argument is that transgender people have something to contribute to society. There have been transgender doctors, scientists, artists, soldiers and authors. When we make it hard for these people to reach their full potential, everyone loses and the world becomes a bit less rich. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/24 "2015-09-06T00:32:41Z")
Who is being harmed here, and who should we look to protect? Has anyone considered the possibility that the kid wants to use the girls’ changing room not to make an abstract statement, but for immediate and practical purposes of safety? If you were an anatomically make, openly transgender student at a high school somewhere in rural Bumfuck, where would you feel safest? In a room full of girls? Or in a room full of potentially aggressive male jocks? I know what I’d pick. Keep in mind that in a dressing room, you are often in a vulnerable position, maybe naked, in a secluded space, with limited access to help or places to escape to if something should happen. If the purpose of segregated dressing rooms is to protect women from male aggression, sexual or otherwise, then this kid probably needs that protection more than anyone. Are the other girls being harmed by, as **even sven** put it, knowing that a penis is kind of nearby? Probably not. They may be vaguely uncomfortable. But they’re most likely not in actual physical danger. So I say let the kid use the girls’ dressing room. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/25 "2015-09-06T00:33:18Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The moral argument would be that when you have an opportunity to help people, at basically no cost to yourself, taking that opportunity is the right thing to do. Why hurt people when you can make their lives better? But it isn’t free. You are asking “normals” to now accept anyone who declares they feel like a girl into their locker room. You make 99 girls feel uncomfortable to satisfy the warped desires of one person. I don’t think the ratio is even 1:100 actually, transgender is rarer than that. Is a minor bit of discomfort seeing a “girl” with possibly a stiffy in the locker room checking you out, spread among 100+ “normal” girls, worth making that one “girl” feel less uncomfortable? I guess that’s a value judgement, but I’m just pointing out that society is brutally unfair in so many other ways, why make an exception here? What compelling reason is there? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/26 "2015-09-06T00:38:15Z")
Sadly, understanding human nature, for every one real TG there will be 1 or more fakers. Where does the right for females to be secure in their changing location trump the right of someone who considers themsef TG? Is there a true test to determine that someone is really TG? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/27 "2015-09-06T00:40:23Z")
Let the students decide. If most of the girls are cool with it, it’s a go. If the majority oppose, the transgendered will have to be accommodated elsewhere. But she shouldn’t have to change with the boys! It’d be like a lesson in democracy for them! I suspect in all such cases it’s a handful of the tightly wound making all the noise, and come to find, they are in the vast, vast minority! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/28 "2015-09-06T00:42:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Sadly, understanding human nature, for every one real TG there will be 1 or more fakers. Where does the right for females to be secure in their changing location trump the right of someone who considers themsef TG? Is there a true test to determine that someone is really TG? If you’re willing to fake being transgender for a chance to a see a naked lady, then, hey, maybe you’ve earned your ogle. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/29 "2015-09-06T00:44:17Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Let the students decide. If most of the girls are cool with it, it’s a go. If the majority oppose, the transgendered will have to be accommodated elsewhere. But she shouldn’t have to change with the boys! > > It’d be like a lesson in democracy for them! I suspect in all such cases it’s a handful of the tightly wound making all the noise, and come to find, they are in the vast, vast minority! Since most students of any orientation are uncomfortable with public nudity it is an issue. But from my understanding showering after PE has almost stopped. Maybe its a problem that doesnt need a solution. Except on hot days. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/30 "2015-09-06T00:45:20Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > If you’re willing to fake being transgender for a chance to a see a naked lady, then, hey, maybe you’ve earned your ogle. Adolescence is a weird period. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/31 "2015-09-06T00:46:42Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Who is being harmed here, and who should we look to protect? > > Has anyone considered the possibility that the kid wants to use the girls’ changing room not to make an abstract statement, but for immediate and practical purposes of safety? > > If you were an anatomically make, openly transgender student at a high school somewhere in rural Bumfuck, where would you feel safest? In a room full of girls? Or in a room full of potentially aggressive male jocks? I know what I’d pick. Keep in mind that in a dressing room, you are often in a vulnerable position, maybe naked, in a secluded space, with limited access to help or places to escape to if something should happen. > > If the purpose of segregated dressing rooms is to protect women from male aggression, sexual or otherwise, then this kid probably needs that protection more than anyone. > > Are the other girls being harmed by, as **even sven** put it, knowing that a penis is kind of nearby? Probably not. They may be vaguely uncomfortable. But they’re most likely not in actual physical danger. > > So I say let the kid use the girls’ dressing room. I think in most cases the transgendered student has been offered a private dressing room in the girls’ locker room, so it’s not about safety. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/32 "2015-09-06T00:48:17Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > I think in most cases the transgendered student has been offered a private dressing room in the girls’ locker room, so it’s not about safety. This works for me. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/33 "2015-09-06T00:48:55Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > warped desires? First you compare trans folks to serial killer and kleptomaniacs. Now you say they have warped desires. **Madirscool** As has been said in so many other threads on transsexuals, you don’t just walk up to the principal, say “I’m transgender!”. You have to see a therapist for a long time first. The same is true of getting hormone therapy and reassignment surgery. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/34 "2015-09-06T00:52:43Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > First you compare trans folks to serial killer and kleptomaniacs. Now you say they have warped desires. > > **Madirscool** > > As has been said in so many other threads on transsexuals, you don’t just walk up to the principal, say “I’m transgender!”. You have to see a therapist for a long time first. The same is true of getting hormone therapy and reassignment surgery. Very good. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/35 "2015-09-06T00:58:07Z")
Lest anyone think that I’m a bleeding heart liberal: I want to go on record as saying that I’d be uncomfortable with sharing a dressing room with someone who is openly and unrepentantly a known serial killer. Kleptomaniacs? Probably OK, as long as they don’t steal my particular shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/36 "2015-09-06T00:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Martian Bigfoot** : > > If you’re willing to fake being transgender for a chance to a see a naked lady, then, hey, maybe you’ve earned your ogle. In a world where transsexuality is viewed as gross or abhorrent, this might work: Few boys would be willing to bear the label of “transsexual” in exchange for getting to see naked girls. But we’re increasingly not living in that world. In a world where transsexuality is viewed as just something that happens sometimes, and has no value judgement attached to it, there’s very little incentive for a horny hetero cis boy not to fake being transsexual in order to sneak a peek. But again, this isn’t really an issue about transsexuality to begin with: Homosexual kids can _already_ sneak a peek at their preferred gender, without having to fake or claim anything. And if we have a problem with that, then we need some new solution, like individual rooms for all. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/37 "2015-09-06T01:03:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But again, this isn’t really an issue about transsexuality to begin with: Homosexual kids can _already_ sneak a peek at their preferred gender, without having to fake or claim anything. And if we have a problem with that, then we need some new solution, like individual rooms for all. It’s either individual rooms for all, or everyone in a big room together. I do hate it when long standing systems of differences break down. It’s a pain in the butt for people designing buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/38 "2015-09-06T01:06:27Z")
Well, from a broader view, none of these things are something someone can help. Nobody “chooses” to be transgender - who in their right mind would do so? Nobody “chooses” to be gay, for the same reason. Well, if during “character creation”, god rolls a dice, then He rolls up like 80 “normals”. For every 100 people, he probably rolls about 10 men who will rape a woman if given an opportunity and who just can’t help themselves. Some studies suggest it might be more like 50%. He probably rolls up like 5 gays, 3 or 4 pedophiles, 1 trannie, one person who is attracted to animals, and a really small number of people who are sexually attracted to shoes or something. It just feels totally arbitrary and capricious to celebrate one kind of “deviance” with pride parades, grudging tolerate several other kinds, and to imprison for decades/scarlet letter mark another. It’s totally random and I doubt anyone who isn’t normal “chooses” to be that way. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/39 "2015-09-06T01:06:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That misses the point entirely. The female students wish to have a school bathroom and locker room that’s entirely free from students who are, at least by what was common understanding for most of their lives, male. This is an entirely reasonable thing to wish for; it’s what many generations of female students had all over this country and as far I know numerous other countries, without harming anyone. Telling those female students that they no longer have the right which everyone simply took for granted until recently is not a mutually agreeable solution to the problem, not even if you point out that they can change in a stall. I have relatives who, for generations, knew they had a right to “a school bathroom and locker room that’s entirely free from” those black people. Even the entire school was free from them! Then the courts & politicians took that right away! And it was there for generations, without harming anyone. (Except the n\*\*\*ers, and they don’t count.) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/40 "2015-09-06T01:06:53Z")
What about the parents? Do/should they get a say in all this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083.md?page=3)