# What's the answer, transgendered students in high school gym dressing rooms. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083 "2015-09-05T22:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/161 "2015-09-07T19:57:59Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I think we’re all basically assuming that the student in the OP at least has a doctor’s note. Because if all it takes to use the girls’ restroom is someone saying “I’m a girl now”, that’s kind of bonkers. Pronouns, fine. Pants/skirt, fine. That stuff won’t hurt anyone, so whatever. But presumably restroom choice requires more documentation before it is even considered. I was certainly taking that as a given. > > If that’s not the case… I think I’ll need to reconsider my stance on this. You do realize that no objective test for any of this exists. Any neural circuitry difference that causes something like this is to small to see on an MRI or other non-invasive methods. It’s just a matter of the patient saying certain things and an opinion developed by a doctor. This both means it is possible to fake it, and for doctors to screw up and disbelieve it. Just saying, it’s in no way objective, versus if a person is missing both legs and in a wheelchair, you can reasonably conclude they need a wheelchair ramp. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/162 "2015-09-07T20:02:36Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > It’s just a matter of the patient saying certain things and an opinion developed by a doctor. Well, that’s how much of psychology/psychiatry works. So, yeah, I’m just wondering if of that kind of thing has taken place. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/163 "2015-09-07T20:03:14Z")
If you stop the video linked in the OP at about 36 seconds in, you’ll see a definite outline of something that normally isn’t found under a skirt. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/164 "2015-09-07T20:23:57Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If you stop the video linked in the OP at about 36 seconds in, you’ll see a definite outline of something that normally isn’t found under a skirt. Thanks! Yes, I think you are right. She ought to wear better underwear with that skirt. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/165 "2015-09-07T20:31:29Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Using the reactive chemicals analogy, you’ve let some chemicals in that want to bond with other chemicals in the same vat, but these chemicals are rare and have to encounter another molecule shaped a particular way for a hookup. . . . Thus, all bathrooms and all locker rooms must be single-occupancy only, because a gay boy might be in the bathroom with another boy, and desire to touch him inappropriately. No one can ever be trusted! Solitary confinement for all citizens… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/166 "2015-09-07T20:34:50Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > . . . My intuition tells me that penis = power. . . . Man, this stuff is hard. . . . It’s springin’ my schwing! But, seriously, I remember, back in the 70’s, some men actually said that Women’s Liberation was “emasculating” to them! That a woman might be able to run for elected office (rare at the time) somehow had the effect of making men less virile. (That and fluorides in the drinking water…) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/167 "2015-09-07T20:35:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Thanks! > > Yes, I think you are right. She ought to wear better underwear with that skirt. or not. Who cares? Most people are aware of penises these days I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/168 "2015-09-07T20:39:56Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > For those who support the transgender using the girls’ locker room, do you support coed locker rooms . . . ? Ultimately, why not? Lots of homes in the U.S. are coed: fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers all do their thing without great concern. Mom’s in the shower, son comes in and takes a shit. Daughter’s in the shower, father comes in for a shave. This is very common, and does no harm. In fact, it’s a good thing. It’s healthy. It’s de facto sex education. It takes away the artificial mystery regarding physical sex differences. Oh, so those are boobies: huh, interesting. (And Geeze, Daddy’s pecker is way bigger than mine!) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/169 "2015-09-07T20:42:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > . . . Yup, they are on a roll but “rolls” tend to dry up. > You seem to think that those gains are irreversible . . . No, we aren’t under any delusions. Nazi Germany reversed centuries of progress, moving from one of the best-educated nations on earth to a troglodytic dictatorship of the idiots. There are idiots here, too, who are fighting as hard as they can to roll back civil rights. The bigots are always a threat to our liberties. Freedom isn’t free, but must be won and re-won every generation. The gains, as wonderful as they are, are always in peril from our next generation of neo-Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/170 "2015-09-07T20:52:16Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Do you have a link to a story about this student? Because that seems really weird. My son, who hasn’t asked to use the ladies room, has been wearing a skirt for a couple of year, now. And no, it doesn’t show his penis any more than a pair of jeans would – less, really, and much less than a pair of men’s swimming trunks would. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKWk2Ec9eRQ) Around the 50 second mark, the student walks down the steps. Yes, it does seem kind of weird, considering that most trans women make some effort NOT to put any penises on display. Most people who want to be accepted as women also make some effort not to wear incredibly unnatural-looking fake hair sloppily bobby-pinned to their heads with sideburns showing, since the purported purpose of the fake hair is to look more woman-like. Most people would also take some sort of step to not have visible facial hair stubble under these circumstances. The student also claims to have identified as a gay male until age 13 (and publicly until 6 months ago), another pink flag. Far be it from me to say a woman must have realistic hair or dress any particular way, but this kid is an exceptionally unconvincing trans woman. If a teenage boy wanted to have a bit of fun and get attention by putting on a wig, a skirt, and a bit of makeup in order to insist he is a girl and must be treated as such I daresay he would perhaps look very much like this. The fact that girls he’d gone to school with as a boy for years now must consider him a girl on his own say-so and let him into their locker room would be pretty hilarious from that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/171 "2015-09-07T20:59:56Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I think we’re all basically assuming that the student in the OP at least has a doctor’s note. Because if all it takes to use the girls’ restroom is someone saying “I’m a girl now”, that’s kind of bonkers. Pronouns, fine. Pants/skirt, fine. That stuff won’t hurt anyone, so whatever. But presumably restroom choice requires more documentation before it is even considered. I was certainly taking that as a given. > > If that’s not the case… I think I’ll need to reconsider my stance on this. Okay. I was guessing the girl in Missouri was documented too. I’m also guessing gender dysphoria doesn’t develop over a few weeks or months. The person with GD would have felt this way for the majority of their adolescence. However, if this is not the case for some claiming to have GD, and they’ve only felt this way since last Christmas, I’m not sure I can trust they have it in the fall semester. Puberty is a tricky part of life. I would hope tests and conversation can confirm this, because it could really mess up a kid who doesn’t really have it. No reason to jump to conclusions with something like this. And I certainly don’t want this to become some kind of attention-fad (like a gluten allergy:rolleyes:). That would also be unfair to those who really do have it. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/172 "2015-09-07T21:03:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I assume she can get an erection. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > I can’t believe she hasn’t noticed that her long sideburns somehow don’t fit her new image. Most likely, the hormone treatments a pre-operation transgender woman would be taking would prevent either of these. Or at least greatly reduce them. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/173 "2015-09-07T21:04:58Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Around the 50 second mark, the student walks down the steps. OK, penis ensues, indeed. Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/174 "2015-09-07T21:07:50Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Okay. I was guessing the girl in Missouri was documented too. I’m also guessing gender dysphoria doesn’t develop over a few weeks or months. The person with GD would have felt this way for the majority of their adolescence. > > However, if this is not the case for some claiming to have GD, and they’ve only felt this way since last Christmas, I’m not sure I can trust they have it in the fall semester. Puberty is a tricky part of life. I would hope tests and conversation can confirm this, because it could really mess up a kid who doesn’t really have it. No reason to jump to conclusions with something like this. And I certainly don’t want this to become some kind of attention-fad (like a gluten allergy:rolleyes:). That would also be unfair to those who really do have it. But who are we or anyone to decide what gender a person “really” is? With gender-fluidity, a boy can “be” a girl and enter the girls’ room any time she wants and would logically have every right to do so. Questioning someone’s gender is ignorant, hateful, and bigoted, we are told. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/175 "2015-09-07T21:09:56Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > or not. Who cares? Most people are aware of penises these days I believe. Possibly, but a penis and sideburns are things that don’t promote a female appearance. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/176 "2015-09-07T21:11:27Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Most likely, the hormone treatments a pre-operation transgender woman would be taking would prevent either of these. Or at least greatly reduce them. No op is required to be a trans woman. No hormone treatments are required. Those options are between the individual and their medical professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/177 "2015-09-07T21:15:48Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Questioning someone’s gender is ignorant, hateful, and bigoted, we are told. Well, under the right circumstances, I would probably still tell you that. But, yeah, I am beginning to entertain the idea that maybe this particular kid isn’t the right hill to die on. Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/178 "2015-09-07T21:17:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thus, all bathrooms and all locker rooms must be single-occupancy only, because a gay boy might be in the bathroom with another boy, and desire to touch him inappropriately. No one can ever be trusted! Solitary confinement for all citizens… I’m saying that since the gay boys are only about 5% of the total boys at most (probably less), and out of that percentage, the gay boys not in the closet during high school are an even smaller percentage, the probability of gay on gay encounters in the bathroom is low. It’s just simple dice rolls, for every gay boy there’s only a 1/20-1/40 chance that the other boy he encounters is also gay, and most gay boys probably desire consensual encounters with other gay boys. If you mix straights together (the other 95%-97.5% of the population), there’s essentially about a 97.5-50 = 47.5% chance that any given bathroom partner is also potentially interested in you. That’s a **huge** difference. So co-ed showers, bathrooms, and locker rooms aren’t practical at the high school/middle school level. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/179 "2015-09-07T21:21:42Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > or not. Who cares? Most people are aware of penises these days I believe. Yes, most people know they exist. Still, it’s generally rude to display them in pubiic in the US. And > [@AnaMen](#): > > [http://youtu.be/KKWk2Ec9eRQ](http://youtu.be/KKWk2Ec9eRQ) > > Around the 50 second mark, the student walks down the steps. > > Yes, it does seem kind of weird, considering that most trans women make some effort NOT to put any penises on display. Most people who want to be accepted as women also make some effort not to wear incredibly unnatural-looking fake hair sloppily bobby-pinned to their heads with sideburns showing, since the purported purpose of the fake hair is to look more woman-like… This, too. This is not the most sympathetic kids I’ve seen wanting to get into a locker room. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083/180 "2015-09-07T21:23:42Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > No op is required to be a trans woman. No hormone treatments are required. Those options are between the individual and their medical professionals. Sure. But as you said above, it’s typical for a transwoman to minimize the visual appearance of her penis, something this person hasn’t done at all. Ordinary men’s underwear would have made her look much more feminine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-answer-transgendered-students-in-high-school-gym-dressing-rooms/730083.md?page=10)