# What's the argument that Showgirls was a good movie?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [December 19, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238 "2005-12-19T02:14:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/61 "2005-12-20T20:13:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> I’ll ignore the reainder of your comments, **Plynk**. Just know they left me scratching my head…
>
> -FrL-
Arrgh. How to explain without…
[walking on eggshells]This has been incendiary in the past, well out of proportion to what one would ordinarily expect when discussing a film. The phrasing of your question made me wonder whether this was a genuine question, or just trying to open old wounds. From your expressed consternation at my comment I come to the conclusion that your question was real. **lissener’s** response to my comment also took your OP as genuine. Deepest apologies if I have offended, and to the mods after going on a forbidden tangent in an attempt to explain my remark. [/walking on eggshells]
And now, returning to the audio/visual part of our programming:
> [@Plynck](#):
>
> And this whole discussion raises a question that I have always had; how could a talented, intelligent and experienced director create a film that many consider the worst of all time? It’s worth a couple of hours to answer that for myself.
Oops. Forgot about [this one](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093278/). If someone can come to its defense, then I’ll give another couple of hours to this as well.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/62 "2005-12-20T20:52:14Z")
> [@Plynck](#):
>
> Oops. Forgot about [this one](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093278/). If someone can come to its defense, then I’ll give another couple of hours to this as well.
\*Ishtar \*has its defenders. Among them, [me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=188328&highlight=ishtar).
---
### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/63 "2005-12-20T23:07:07Z")
> [@lissener](#):
>
> \*Ishtar \*has its defenders. Among them, [me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=188328&highlight=ishtar).
Also, for whatever it’s woth, this newspaper’s own [Jonathan Rosenbaum](http://onfilm.chicagoreader.com/movies/capsules/25266_ISHTAR), one of the most respected critics in the world today.
I didn’t see _Ishtar_ till years later, until I heard that Rosenbaum was a defender. This made me curious. So I rented it, and frankly it was a hoot. If it hadn’t been set up by the press, I think it would have been received more openly. It would still have its detractors–it’s not a masterpiece by any means–but it might have been received for what it was: a reasonably entertaining comedy, with some fall-down-funny moments.
One of the problems, of course, was that May spent so much money making it. This was a huge mistake, primarily because Elaine May is a member of the John Cassavetes school of filmmaking: she’s a minimalist. And when you’re making one of the most expensive movies ever made, your audience is NOT gonna expect a bunch of minimalism up on the screen. She could have made very much the same movie for a tenth of what she spent, and if she had she’d still have a career.
I think you’re more likely to appreciate May’s approach to the film, also, if you’re familiar with her previous works. She makes small, quiet “buddy” movies mostly. Wry little character studies about personal relationships. Again, not what you expect from a big budget, globe trotting flick.
In any case, I think _Ishtar_ is a hoot, and if you haven’t seen it you should judge for yourself.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/64 "2005-12-21T01:55:47Z")
> [@lissener](#):
>
> \*Ishtar \*has its defenders. Among them, [me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=188328&highlight=ishtar).
Lissener, we have a lot in common! We both like crappy movies. Just different crappy movies. Or sometimes the same crappy movies, for different reasons.
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### Author:  [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/65 "2005-12-21T02:13:56Z")
> [@lissener](#):
>
> And I would ask, in all seriousness, that you read again carefull. I have never gotten angry at ANYONE’S criticism of this movie. I have ONLY ever gotten defensive with the criticism turns personal, as in Yookeroo’s comparing me to to the people who PRETENDED to see the emperor’s clothes because they wanted to impress others with their intelligence.
FWIW, I have no doubt you’re sincere when you see all this meaning in the movie. All I mean by “emperor’s clothes” is that I think you’re seeing something that isn’t actually there.
Now why you didn’t fly off the handle at the person who originally brought up the emperor is beyond me.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/66 "2005-12-21T03:02:24Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#):
>
> Yet it still retains a 14% [approval](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/showgirls/) rating at rotten tomatos. Heck, the users gave it a mere 2.7 out of 10. People, for the most part, just don’t enjoy the movie.
It’s not that people simply didn’t enjoy the movie, it’s that people hated the movie.
Which is about spot on. Verhoeven doesn’t want you to like the movie. He hates you. He’s making fun of you. And you paid to see it. That is part of the joke.
I didn’t see showgirls until many years after it came out at a midnight movie. What amazed me was how unrelenting it is. It’s epic. It doesn’t stop. It doesn’t hold a single thing back. I’ve never seen anything like it.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/67 "2005-12-21T05:12:16Z")
> [@don't ask](#):
>
> And I didn’t.
Ha! I just got it!
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/68 "2005-12-21T05:15:05Z")
> [@don't ask](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven
> > The request was from a REPORT BAD POST, and I will preserve the confidentiality of the two people who asked.
>
> Mysteriouser and mysteriouser.
HA!
Man, you’re on fire!
(I hope you meant it to be funny? “Mysteriouser” and “Mysteriouser” are the two people who asked?)
. . . and “don’t ask–and I didn’t”–you meant that too?
If not dude, that’s some serendipitous funny.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [December 21, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/69 "2005-12-21T14:06:42Z")
> [@zoid](#):
>
> _bolding mine_
>
> I just have to say that I’ve been trying to think of a way to describe this for ages.
> Thank you **Evil Captor**! (and just to be clear I don’t mean that as either a criticism or endorsement of the movie – I just think it’s an excellent description)
You’re quite welcome! Enjoy!
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### Author:  [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/70 "2005-12-22T15:21:40Z")
I watched it last night. Nomi is an unsympathetic character to me. Other than when she was nice to James after his show was booed off the stage she was a bitch. She is a character that I don’t care if she lived or died.
The rest of the story was pretty typical backstabbing catty behavior that I’ve seen dozens of times involving behind the stage stories. This one just had lots and lots of naked girls.
Over all it was great or awful. Kind of meh? I don’t think it deserves the piles of shit that have been thrown at it, but I don’t know if I’ll bother to watch it again either.
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### Author:  [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/71 "2005-12-22T17:29:13Z")
> [@Mr. Goob](#):
>
> I watched it last night. Nomi is an unsympathetic character to me. Other than when she was nice to James after his show was booed off the stage she was a bitch. She is a character that I don’t care if she lived or died.
I would be shocked if anyone who liked _Showgirls_ – for whatever reason – considered Nomi to be a sympathetic character. She’s deliberately awful and unsympathetic. Other potential viewers beware: you will not care for the main character. Nor for many of the supporting characters. It’s not an up-with-people kind of story.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/72 "2005-12-22T21:30:52Z")
It’s not that I didn’t like her, I didn’t give a shit at all. At least with a good villian you can get emotionally involved. Nomi was hollow and flat as a character. I blame that on the writing more than the preformance.
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### Author:  [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)
#### Post date: [December 22, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-argument-that-showgirls-was-a-good-movie/336238/73 "2005-12-22T21:32:55Z")
> [@Mr. Goob](#):
>
> Nomi was hollow and flat as a character. I blame that on the writing more than the preformance.
You can credit both.
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