# What's the bare minimum it would it take to overthrow the US Government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569 "2013-12-31T16:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/21 "2013-12-31T17:13:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For example, a few dozen Timothy McVeighs, all scheduled to blow up their nearest federal building next Monday at 10:00 AM would probably get you a good ways down the road towards succeeding. [Backs slowly away from the thread…] ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/22 "2013-12-31T17:13:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Success” is achieved when the federal government (but not necessarily state or local .govs) no longer have the ability to exercise meaningful control over 50+% of their territory / population. Tax evaders go unpunished, federal agencies like the EPA, ATF, DEA, are unable to enforce their rules / statutes, federal courts and Congress (if they are still in session) are ignored and new laws aren’t actually acted upon, troops under federal command have either been defeated or ignore orders to enforce the Executive’s will, etc. If that’s the condition then you could do it with a couple nukes and maybe a team of snipers to finish off any surviving VIPs who would try to continue the former government. But I thought the point of revolution was to replace the guys on top with you and your pals. Rebuilding all that political infrastructure would be a pain. Easier to do a bloodless coup, probably led by big business and corrupt officials. Or you could go the other way and try to fracture the whole country so it breaks up into smaller political units, then claw your way to the top of the Mad Max skull pile. Blow up 10-20 important cities and maybe it could happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/23 "2013-12-31T17:16:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Here’s another possibility: > > a well-funded secretive organization buys a couple of nuclear warheads from Pakistan / China, launches them high into the atmosphere, and detonates them, generating an EMP that crashes the power grid and fries many sensitive electrical components all across the country. Another “magic wand” change that makes the situation worse then what the country is in now or even what the country would have been in the OP’s original premise. BTW-that’s not what would happen if you exploded a couple of nukes in the air. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/24 "2013-12-31T17:18:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s _your_ revolution, dude-what’s your motivation? Who will join you largely depends on what the revolution stands for…and for the luvva ghod, doen’t say “It’s for THE PEOPLE!!” > Everybody’s a “PEOPLE”. _My_ revolution would go something like this: Congress enacts a draconian gun ban calling for confiscations and imprisonment of gun owners on a voice vote while most Congressmen are out of town for the holidays. Obama seizes the once-in-a-generation opportunity and signs the shady bill. The next day ~10% of gun owners (call it an even 8 million people) decide that enough is enough and it’s “fo time” and they start shooting everything wearing a government uniform: police, ATF agents, forest rangers, postmen, etc. The word is put out that if you’re a public official and you want to live to see the weekend, you won’t go to work anymore. The Government shuts down. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/25 "2013-12-31T17:21:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For example, a few dozen Timothy McVeighs, all scheduled to blow up their nearest federal building next Monday at 10:00 AM would probably get you a good ways down the road towards succeeding. Based on past history I can say that the perpetrators will have another thing coming at them; the scrutiny that even a single incident caused to the militia and extremist movements in the USA when the real incident took place tells me that even more attention and force applied to them would come. And with the support of a super majority of Americans, because with a few dozen incidents taking place that old excuse that we would be dealing with just a few rotten apples will not fly. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/26 "2013-12-31T17:25:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > _My_ revolution would go something like this: Congress enacts a draconian gun ban calling for confiscations and imprisonment of gun owners on a voice vote while most Congressmen are out of town for the holidays. Obama seizes the once-in-a-generation opportunity and signs the shady bill. The next day ~10% of gun owners (call it an even 8 million people) decide that enough is enough and it’s “fo time” and they start shooting everything wearing a government uniform: police, ATF agents, forest rangers, postmen, etc. The word is put out that if you’re a public official and you want to live to see the weekend, you won’t go to work anymore. The Government shuts down. American history has showed me that the ones blamed are the ones that start shooting to government [del]forts[/del] buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/27 "2013-12-31T17:27:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > _My_ revolution would go something like this: Congress enacts a draconian gun ban calling for confiscations and imprisonment of gun owners on a voice vote while most Congressmen are out of town for the holidays. Obama seizes the once-in-a-generation opportunity and signs the shady bill. The next day ~10% of gun owners (call it an even 8 million people) decide that enough is enough and it’s “fo time” and they start shooting everything wearing a government uniform: police, ATF agents, forest rangers, postmen, etc. The word is put out that if you’re a public official and you want to live to see the weekend, you won’t go to work anymore. The Government shuts down. Psychotic generals, blowing up public buildings, tactical nukes causing the shutdown of the country, a total misunderstanding on how laws are passed and the mass murder of public officials. Wow. And you expect people to rally _behind_ you?? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/28 "2013-12-31T17:27:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > BTW-that’s not what would happen if you exploded a couple of nukes in the air. [People that know more about it than I do disagree (warning: PDF)](http://empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf). > [@](#): > > EMP is one of a small number of threats that can hold our society at risk of catastrophic consequences. EMP will cover the wide geographic region within line of sight to the nuclear weapon. It has the capability to produce significant damage to critical infrastructures and thus to the very fabric of US society, as well as to the ability of the United States and Western nations to project influence and military power. > > The common element that can produce such an impact from EMP is primarily electronics, so pervasive in all aspects of our society and military, coupled through critical infrastructures. Our vulnerability is increasing daily as our use of and dependence on electronics continues to grow. The impact of EMP is asymmetric in relation to potential protagonists who are not as dependent on modern electronics. > > … > > The electromagnetic fields produced by weapons designed and deployed with the intent to produce EMP have a high likelihood of damaging electrical power systems, electronics, and information systems upon which American society depends. Their effects on dependent systems and infrastructures could be sufficient to qualify as catastrophic to the Nation. > > Depending on the specific characteristics of the attacks, unprecedented cascading failures of our major infrastructures could result. In that event, a regional or national recovery would be long and difficult and would seriously degrade the safety and overall viability of our Nation. The primary avenues for catastrophic damage to the Nation are through our electric power infrastructure and thence into our telecommunications, energy, and other infrastructures. These, in turn, can seriously impact other important aspects of our Nation’s life, including the financial system; means of getting food, water, and medical care to the citizenry; trade; and production of goods and services. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/29 "2013-12-31T17:30:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Based on past history I can say that the perpetrators will have another thing coming at them; the scrutiny that even a single incident caused to the militia and extremist movements in the USA when the real incident took place tells me that even more attention and force applied to them would come. And with the support of a super majority of Americans, because with a few dozen incidents taking place that old excuse that we would be dealing with just a few rotten apples will not fly. Maybe instead of Timothy McVeigh wanna-be’s they’re several dozen Jihadists that got their act together enough to make effective bombs and coordinate an attack. We’re not about to lock up all the Muslims in camps and start interrogating them a la Bruce Willis in “The Siege” are we? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/30 "2013-12-31T17:36:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > American history has showed me that the ones blamed are the ones that start shooting to government [del]forts[/del] buildings. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Psychotic generals, blowing up public buildings, tactical nukes causing the shutdown of the country, a total misunderstanding on how laws are passed and the mass murder of public officials. > > Wow. > > And you expect people to rally _behind_ you?? I’m not expecting anything like this to ever happen. I suspect GIGO is right and most people would blame the revolutionaries, and NOT “rally behind” them. _BUT_, is majority support necessary to overthrow the federal government? I don’t think that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/31 "2013-12-31T17:39:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Maybe instead of Timothy McVeigh wanna-be’s they’re several dozen Jihadists that got their act together enough to make effective bombs and coordinate an attack. We’re not about to lock up all the Muslims in camps and start interrogating them a la Bruce Willis in “The Siege” are we? I’m getting confused here-I thought _you_ were the Glorious Leader of this revolution-it says so right there in your opening post. Are these “Jihadists” part of your group and, if so, why would they be fighting for your cause? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/32 "2013-12-31T17:40:05Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I just don’t think it can be done, once the US Military is let loose on you you go the way of John Brown. > > IOW the revolution will be short and unsuccessful. > > **Capt** Nearly all successful revolutions have involved subverting the military. You don’t win by going up against them in force with irregular troops, you win by getting them (or a sufficient proportion of them) to join your side. In general, revolution, or even just regime change, is not simply a matter of mere numbers or sheer firepower, it is a matter of having the support of key people in key positions (often particularly, but not only, mid-ranking military officers). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/33 "2013-12-31T17:43:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [People that know more about it than I do disagree (warning: PDF)](http://empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf). You proposed 2 nukes "emp"ing the entire country. Your link claimed line-of-sight effectiveness-how large an area do you think 2 nukes would cover? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/34 "2013-12-31T17:45:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m getting confused here-I thought _you_ were the Glorious Leader of this revolution-it says so right there in your opening post. Are these “Jihadists” part of your group and, if so, why would they be fighting for your cause? My OP was to elicit discussion about the minimum support / personnel / public attitudes / circumstances that would have to come to pass to successfully overthrow the US government. One possible scenario might be a few dozen Jihadists. Another possible scenario might be an EMP attack. Another possible scenario might be a few million pissed-off gun owners. Another scenario might be a significant portion of the Armed Forces attempting a coup. The various examples I’ve given aren’t necessarily related. What do YOU think the minimum necessary requirements would be. Could you do it if you were a Jihadist with ~50 suicide bombers? Could you do it if you were the commander of a division with ~10,000 loyal troops? Could you do it if you were Oprah or Trayvon Martin’s parents? What do you think it would require for you to succeed? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/35 "2013-12-31T17:48:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You proposed 2 nukes "emp"ing the entire country. Your link claimed line-of-sight effectiveness-how large an area do you think 2 nukes would cover? Also from the linked PDF: > [@](#): > > Different types of nuclear weapons produce different EMP effects. The Commission limited its attention to the most strategically significant cases in which detonation of one or few nuclear warheads could result in widespread, potentially long-duration disruption or damage that places at risk the functioning of American society or the effectiveness of US military forces. Again, not an expert, but it sounds like a couple of nukes could “cover” most / all of CONUS with EMP effects. See [this image](http://www.shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/emp_map_graphic.jpg) to get the basic idea. ETA: also from the link: > [@](#): > > What is significant about an EMP attack is that one or a few high-altitude nuclear detonations can produce EMP effects that can potentially disrupt or damage electronic and electrical systems over much of the United States, virtually simultaneously, at a time determined by an adversary. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/36 "2013-12-31T17:52:04Z")
I think it can be done. Set up a criminal organization. Let’s call it Wall Street. Control all the equities trading in the country and set up a ponzi scheme so complicated that nobody understands it. Take the money from that and bribe the government officials to work for you. Tax the poor and the working to make government function and start bombing people all over the world who travel in caravans to weddings. Listen in to all telephone calls and use computers to gather all data on dissenters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/37 "2013-12-31T17:55:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My OP was to elicit discussion about the minimum support / personnel / public attitudes / circumstances that would have to come to pass to successfully overthrow the US government. One possible scenario might be a few dozen Jihadists. Another possible scenario might be an EMP attack. Another possible scenario might be a few million pissed-off gun owners. Another scenario might be a significant portion of the Armed Forces attempting a coup. The various examples I’ve given aren’t necessarily related. And you’ve been shown why each of those scenarios couldn’t work. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do YOU think the minimum necessary requirements would be. Could you do it if you were a Jihadist with ~50 suicide bombers? Could you do it if you were the commander of a division with ~10,000 loyal troops? Could you do it if you were Oprah or Trayvon Martin’s parents? What do you think it would require for you to succeed? To come up with a better form of government that a majority of Americans would support. What have you got? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/38 "2013-12-31T17:55:58Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think it can be done. Set up a criminal organization. Let’s call it Wall Street. Control all the equities trading in the country and set up a ponzi scheme so complicated that nobody understands it. Take the money from that and bribe the government officials to work for you. Tax the poor and the working to make government function and start bombing people all over the world who travel in caravans to weddings. Listen in to all telephone calls and use computers to gather all data on dissenters. No no no, that’s what we’re talking about how to _STOP_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/39 "2013-12-31T18:00:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No no no, that’s what we’re talking about how to _STOP_. 😉 I’d rather have that than tactical nukes, Jihadists and McVeighs, and insane generals. How about coming up with a solution that isn’t worse than the problem you seem to have with the government we now have? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569/40 "2013-12-31T18:02:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you’ve ben show why each of those scenarios couldn’t work. When did that happen? For example, in the bombing federal building scenario, you posted: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Such an event would make you the most hated man on earth. While that’s probably true, how does that affect the outcome? The Federal Government would still be without large portions of its personnel and infrastructure. They’d still struggle to function effectively, whether the people were pissed about it or not. Or in the “gun owners revolt” variety. When did you show why that “couldn’t work”? Maybe the exact mechanism for triggering such a revolt is inaccurate. Maybe it’d take an Executive Order from Obama rather than an Act of Congress, since it appears that even the mildest forms of gun control are DOA there, but if there were 8 million angry, armed citizens willing to kill and die to end an injustice, do you really think the federal government could continue to operate effectively? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-bare-minimum-it-would-it-take-to-overthrow-the-us-government/677569.md?page=3)