# What's the Big Deal About Robert E. Lee? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591 "2018-07-09T17:42:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/101 "2018-07-10T22:48:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This…makes no sense at all. Do you see people today defending the right to own machinery? No you don’t, because owning industrial machinery is not a controversial idea. > > Of course, the transatlantic slave trade had been abolished in 1807. There was no fear of the abolition of slavery in 1860. Abraham Lincoln wasn’t going to abolish slavery. What he was going to do was prevent the expansion of slavery into new territories, which would eventually make slaveholding states a minority, which would eventually lead to the abolition of slavery. > > In any case, putting robots to work is not the same as slavery. I can’t even understand why you would write something so ridiculous. Slaves are human beings. How does the quote go? “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Except if you’re a slave. Please don’t tell me that Southerners didn’t consider slaves to be human beings, because that’s just nonsense. And of course, scientific racism as a justification for slavery was a product of the middle 1800s, not back in the 1700s. > > The founding fathers, even the slaveholding ones, recognized that slavery was incompatible with the principles of the founding of the United States, and at some point the contradiction would have to be resolved. They expected it to be resolved by the gradual abolition of slavery, someway, somehow. Except that didn’t happen, and slavery became more and more entrenched, as the ruling classes of the South depended 100% upon slavery for their wealth. > > But no country can remain half slave and half free, it will either become all one or all the other. And the Southern slavocracy was determined to see the expansion of slavery into the whole country. The fugitive slave act is a perfect example. It doesn’t matter that slavery is now illegal in New York, the mere act of moving to New York state doesn’t mean that a slave is now free. They are still a slave, and thus bound to service back home. And since a slave is not entitled to due process, how can an escaped slave be entitled to due process? And so anyone could be kidnapped and taken to a slave state and enslaved. Oh, only black people? Except how was that going to work? Because if you had 7 European great-grandparents, and one African great-grandparent, what did that make you? > > And so, even the 7/8ths White children of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings where slaves. It doesn’t matter if your father is the fucking president of the United States, Thomas Jefferson literally owned his own children as slaves. Because why? Because their mother was a slave. And Sally Hemings was a slave, despite being the half sister of Jefferson’s wife Martha, because Sally’s mother was a slave. > > Slaves. Not the same as robots. The conflict between the North and the South was over slavery, not farm machinery. Farm machinery doesn’t try to escape and go to a place where using farm machinery is illegal. People don’t insist on the right of a state to make owning farm machinery legal. Is it more horrific that the majority people of Germany worked to kill as many Jews as they could, or that they simply ignored what everyone knew was going on? As said, personally, I find the latter more horrific and so I prefer to present things in that sense. There’s nothing to prevent your average good, wonderful, and caring person from accepting and tolerating, or even for fighting to preserve, evil acts. That’s scary, and it’s worth noting that WWII is not the only time it happened. So I do understand your point, and I don’t deny any of it, but there’s a different lesson that can also be taken. ---
**Author:** ![ohiomstr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/82dd89/32.png) [@ohiomstr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ohiomstr2)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/102 "2018-07-11T02:55:30Z")
To answer the OP original question, I think Lee is revered more than the others is because he is the most well known. There are ( or used to be anyway) tons of monuments to these people but I remember Lee being the most common. In any case, most of the monuments were erected to glorify segregation and have had a brand of misguided “greatness” attached to soldiers and politicians who, in any other context, would be labeled as traitors. Whether or not Lee was a good general is highly debatable, what is not debatable is that he betrayed the oath he made when sworn as an officer of the US Army and joined a seditious cause Off subject, I for one do not think the Confederacy should be forgotten or wiped from history. What should be is that these individuals be labeled as what the were, traitors who precipitated a bloody war to maintain a heinous system. Perhaps gather all of the monuments in a special area of Richmond. We can call it Traitors park ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/103 "2018-07-11T03:13:58Z")
To preserve history, one correspondent on twitter recommends that a metallic plaque like the following be affixed to various Robert E Lee statues: [INDENT] Robert E Lee participated and championed legalized kidnapping, human trafficking, torture, rape and murder. He led an insurrection against the United States to keep these acts legal. This statue was erected years later, to celebrate renewed oppression. [/INDENT] [https://twitter.com/DanSchwarcz/status/1016874392935165957](https://twitter.com/DanSchwarcz/status/1016874392935165957) As I’m not sure murdering a slave was technically legal at the time, I’d cross that out. I’d also throw in a couple of additional sentences regarding Lee’s personal views, perhaps with one of the quotes provided by Stranger On A Train. That certainly would not be an attack on history. Shortly afterwards you could raze the statue, but keep the plaque, suitably modified. That wouldn’t be an attack on history either. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/104 "2018-07-11T10:35:14Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Please feel free to use as many words as necessary to explain your prevarication. On the other hand, no number of words excuses accusations of lying in Great Deabtes. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/105 "2018-07-11T16:39:54Z")
Response hopelessly out of date. ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/106 "2018-07-11T19:12:35Z")
While I have a problem with any statues, miscellaneous works of art, plaques, monuments, etc. that in any way glorify slavery, persecution, or the suppression of rights of any group of human beings, perhaps the best way of dealing with this is by giving equal space to glorify those that were persecuted, and fought against such persecution. Examples of how this has been done in the past include the Jewish Museum in New York, and the [Lynching Memoria](https://www.snopes.com/ap/2018/04/23/new-lynching-memorial-offers-chance-remember-heal/)l in Montgomery, Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/107 "2018-07-11T19:15:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > As I’m not sure murdering a slave was technically legal at the time, I’d cross that out. It was kind of iffy. The laws, of course, varied from state to state and decade to decade. But there was a general consensus that it was illegal to deliberately murder a slave. However, as you might guess, there was a lot of gray area in what constituted deliberate murder. It was generally accepted that it was okay for a white man to kill a slave if it was done during an excessive corporal punishment or if the slave had done something which gave the white man an excuse that he was angered and murdered the slave in the heat of the moment. And even in cases where a white man indisputably murdered a slave with intent and for no acceptable reason, it required somebody in the local law enforcement community to be willing to press charges. And then for the white man to be found guilty at a trial before his local peers. And if you managed to get the accused though all this and obtain a conviction, the punishment for murdering a slave was generally a fine. Unless you killed a slave that belonged to somebody else. Then the owner could sue you for the loss of his property. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/108 "2018-07-11T20:33:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And even in cases where a white man indisputably murdered a slave with intent and for no acceptable reason, it required somebody in the local law enforcement community to be willing to press charges. And then for the white man to be found guilty at a trial before his local peers. And if you managed to get the accused though all this and obtain a conviction, the punishment for murdering a slave was generally a fine. In all the antebellum state constitutions I’m familiar with (and would-be constitutions, like the [Lecompton Constitution](http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/207409/text) proposed for Kansas), the punishment for deliberately murdering a slave (or “dismembering” him) was invariably stated to be the same “as would be inflicted in case the like offense had been committed on a free white person”. (And in the 19th century I’m pretty sure that would be death, for any premeditated murder.) The rest of the quoted paragraph does still stand, though; a white man would have to be prosecuted for murdering a slave by a white prosecutor, in front of a white judge, and convicted by a white jury; and that white jury would have to decide that no “he was coming right at me!” (“except in case of insurrection of such slave”) loophole applied. ([Some antebellum constitutions](https://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/topics/government/related_article/constitutions/georgia-constitution-of-1798) did also explicitly state that accidentally killing a slave “in giving such slave moderate correction” didn’t count as murder.) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/109 "2018-07-11T20:59:00Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I’m sorry, that’s a ret-con of the situation, as you well should know. I’m no apologist for the South and the rebellion; quite the opposite. But Robert E. Lee did what he did in large measure because of a solid belief… He swore an oath as a US army officer, then forswore it to wage war against the United States in support of White Supremacy. His belief is irrelevant to the treason - everyone who commits treason believes they’re in the right - and to the fact that the cause that he actually fought for was the torture, rape, and murder of black people for the economic benefit of white people. I also question the use of ‘gentleman’ to describe someone who believed that raping black women and whipping black men is a cause for celebration, and that anyone attempting to interfere with the right of whites to split up black families, work the men to death, and rape the women should be fought. I think that for someone to reasonably be described as a ‘gentleman’ in the 21st century, they need to not fight a war for the express purpose of enabling rich whites to rape and torture dark-skinned people on a whim. I believe that a modern gentleman needs to respect the right of blacks to not be raped to earn the title, but apparently that’s a controversial position here. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/110 "2018-07-11T21:07:26Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > That is exactly what is being attempted. Every attempt I have seen to remove or relocate confederate memorials has been done to excise some US history. To erase it from public knowledge. No attempt to spread historical knowledge, just to remove it. Actually, every attempt to tear down monuments involves a lot of spreading of actual historical knowledge. The momements that are being torn down attempt to spread only ‘lost cause’ nonsense, which is contrary to actual history, and celebrate white supremacy. Memorials celebrating slavery and claiming white supremacy have as much place in the modern US as swastika bedecked statues celebrating Hitler and the Nazi regime do in Germany - and I don’t see any of the ‘erasing history’ claimants actually pushing for Germany to erect monuments of that sort. (Interesting fact: Since swastika flags are banned in Germany and several nearby countries, pro-Nazi groups often use the Confederate flag when they march.) > [@](#): > > A big part of t he problem is that both sides are absolutist in their approach. A bit of compromise on both parts would be best. I’m not willing to compromise on the position of ‘are black people human beings who get equal rights, or is it cool to rape, torture, and murder them’. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/111 "2018-07-12T21:53:31Z")
If the problem is that without the statues people would start forgetting about the Civil War, I say we need to start putting up statues of General Sherman all over Georgia, so that people there won’t forget what happened in the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/112 "2018-07-12T22:32:58Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > And for Rushmore, completely unimpressive when standing under it. Looks better in pictures, strangely. 😕 Once you’ve actually seen the place, the ending of _North by Northwest_ makes no sense at all. Aside from the unlikelihood of there being a private home (and airstrip!) on the mountain within walking distance of the monument, what were Cary Grant and Eva Maria Saint trying to accomplish by climbing down the carved faces? Once you pass Washington’s collar, it’s a pretty sheer drop of a few hundred feet down to a huge pile of rubble. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/113 "2018-07-12T22:38:34Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Side note: of course it is now no longer PC to commemorate people who supported slavery. So ironically the trend is abruptly ending now. So take my question in the past tense, then. That makes sense – slavery was a great Evil. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were great men of great character flaws. They are heroes who founded USA. They are villains who enforced Slavery. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/114 "2018-07-12T22:41:12Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > It’s not about erasing the Confederacy from history - I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want it taught in school (though I do have some complaints on how it’s taught some places) or not to have displays in museums. It’s about not continuing to _honor and glorify_ those who fought to preserve slavery. To name schools and streets after them, and have statues of them built with public funds and displayed on public land. I agree. They should be remembered as villains. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/115 "2018-07-12T22:45:53Z")
In Russia there are no monuments to the White Guard that lost Russian Civil War. General Denikin famous for atrocities has no monuments. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/116 "2018-07-13T12:08:29Z")
Yeah, Washington and Jefferson did great good and great evil. We can celebrate and honor the good they did, while scorning the evil. With Lee, though, his greatness was all on the side of evil. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/117 "2018-07-13T13:24:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, Washington and Jefferson did great good and great evil. We can celebrate and honor the good they did, while scorning the evil. With Lee, though, his greatness was all on the side of evil. Well, not _all_. Before the war he served his nation honorably and ably, and after was quite distinguished as the head of Washington College. I’m not sure I object to honoring him for those achievements in very specific context. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/118 "2018-07-13T13:45:07Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In Russia there are no monuments to the White Guard that lost Russian Civil War. General Denikin famous for atrocities has no monuments. He’s got a pretty fancy grave, though. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/119 "2018-07-13T15:54:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If the problem is that without the statues people would start forgetting about the Civil War, I say we need to start putting up statues of General Sherman all over Georgia, so that people there won’t forget what happened in the Civil War. Fuck yeah! 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/120 "2018-07-13T16:00:01Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Well, not _all_. Before the war he served his nation honorably and ably, and after was quite distinguished as the head of Washington College. I’m not sure I object to honoring him for those achievements in very specific context. By all means, there should be a statue of Robert E. Lee on the campus of what’s now Washington & Lee University. (I’m sure there already is one; no need to tear it down. But change the inscription if any of it honors his Civil War service.) But how many statues do we have in this country, I wonder, specifically honoring the heroes of the Mexican War? IIRC, that was Lee’s main pre-secession claim to fame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591.md?page=7)