# What's the Big Deal About Robert E. Lee? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591 "2018-07-09T17:42:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/121 "2018-07-13T18:07:12Z")
Oh, he’s honoured at the Washington & Lee University, as outlined in this NY Times article: [My University Is Named for Robert E. Lee. What Now?](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/opinion/washington-lee-university-trump-nationalism.html) > [@](#): > > Portraits of the man are prominently displayed, and three university buildings bear his name. One is the president’s house, in which Lee died. The second, Lee-Jackson House, is home to the office of the dean of the college and is also named for Stonewall Jackson, Lee’s military colleague in the Confederacy. The third building is Lee Chapel, which was commissioned by the retired general but not named for him until after his death. > > Inside this campus landmark, where an altar might have been built, rests a gigantic, recumbent, marble statue of Lee, wearing Confederate battle gear and resting on a camp bed. (Lee is buried with his family in a mausoleum beneath the chapel.) > > … > > Until 2014, my sophomore year, when a group of African-American students made several demands to improve the campus environment for people of color, the recumbent statue of Lee was also flanked by reproductions of the Confederate battle flag. Many students and alumni argued that the flags should remain in the chapel, even though, after the Civil War, Lee himself resisted memorials to the Confederate cause or displays of its flag. > > I was a tour guide then. One afternoon while I was showing a group around campus, a mother stopped me midsentence to ask why an assembly of men dressed in gray and wielding Confederate flags was protesting in front of the chapel. I tried stalling for a few moments. What were we supposed to tell people again? Oh yes: “This is not typical at Washington and Lee. The protesters should be gone for good soon.” But to my surprise, the mother on my tour praised them “for just celebrating their heritage.” > > An African-American family just happened to be with us. After that comment, they didn’t ask any more questions about the school. They left right after the tour. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/122 "2018-07-13T18:29:03Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Supposedly Lee was a great general. However, at the key battle of Gettysburg, I read he ordered his men to charge up a heavily defensive hill, taking heavy losses in the process with a goal of using their bayonet’s in close quarters. He said its all my fault boys. > > A good general on that day he was not. If he was able to admit to his errors he was a better boss than most. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/123 "2018-07-13T21:00:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, Washington and Jefferson did great good and great evil. We can celebrate and honor the good they did, while scorning the evil. With Lee, though, his greatness was all on the side of evil. What Evil did they do? Yes, they kept slaves- \*which wasnt considered evil back then. \* ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/124 "2018-07-13T21:23:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If the problem is that without the statues people would start forgetting about the Civil War, I say we need to start putting up statues of General Sherman all over Georgia, so that people there won’t forget what happened in the Civil War. I dunno about statutes, but some eternal-flame monuments would certainly get the message across. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/125 "2018-07-13T21:42:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What Evil did they do? > > Yes, they kept slaves- \*which wasnt considered evil back then. \* It was by some. Franklin and Adams in particular. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/126 "2018-07-13T21:42:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What Evil did they do? > > Yes, they kept slaves- \*which wasnt considered evil back then. \* Rather a lot of people thought it evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mr.Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Bill)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/127 "2018-07-13T21:46:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Supposedly Lee was a great general. However, at the key battle of Gettysburg, I read he ordered his men to charge up a heavily defensive hill, taking heavy losses in the process with a goal of using their bayonet’s in close quarters. He said its all my fault boys. > > A good general on that day he was not. Lee’s failure at Gettysburg consisted of far more than ordering Pickett’s Charge. He mismanaged the battle from the start, had no control over a significant part of his forces (J.E.B. Stuart’s cavalry, resulting in Lee not knowing where the opposition forces were), allowed the Union forces to choose the field of battle and occupy the commanding positions. He was not present during the opening engagements and was presented with a situation in which his forces were not in control. What he should have done, after arriving and surveying the situation was to decline battle and relocate to a position in which the Union forces had to come to him. This is what had worked for him prior to Gettysburg. Most, if not all, of Lee’s successful battles were so because he chose the field of battle and made the Union forces come to him. He also failed to take Union leadership into account. Many of his previous victories had been against forces which had leadership which was tentative at best. At Gettysburg, the Union forces were under the newly appointed Meade, who turned out to be the fighting general that Lincoln had been looking for. It’s easy to say, “well it’s just one battle”, but it was the decisive battle in a campaign in which he specifically set out to bring the Union to its’ knees by invading the North and threatening, if not capturing, Washington. Seems to me that somewhere closer to the Capital, on ground Lee had chosen, would have been a better choice for the decisive battle. To be fair, I have read ([The cardiac illness of General Robert E. Lee - PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1542842)) that Lee may have been seriously ill with a heart condition at the time of Gettysburg, so he may not have been at his best. Still, the fact remains that he failed in the most important battle of his career. > [@RickJay](#): > > Given the remarkable number of battles Lee fought, he was going to lose some. > > The measure of a great general isn’t winning battles. It’s winning campaigns… True. And he lost the Gettysburg Campaign. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/128 "2018-07-13T21:55:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Rather a lot of people thought it evil. Sure, but a small minority. Other than a few scattered religious thinkers, abolitionists werent organized for quite some time. The first abolitionist organization was in Britain, by Quakers in 1783. The Clapham Sect wasnt active until the 1780’s. It didnt take hold until after 1800. Not Illegal in the Empire until 1833. Pennsylvania was the first state to ban slavery in 1780. Note that Thomas Jefferson made the international slave trade illegal in 1806-8. So, yes, he led the fight vs slavery, despite being a slaveholder himself. Jefferson was in favor of gradual manumission, not a sudden freeing of all slaves. So, In 1776, there wasnt much in the way of organized abolitionist movements. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/129 "2018-07-13T22:01:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but a small minority. Other than a few scattered religious thinkers, abolitionists werent organized for quite some time. > > The first abolitionist organization was in Britain, by Quakers in 1783. The Clapham Sect wasnt active until the 1780’s. > > It didnt take hold until after 1800. Not Illegal in the Empire until 1833. > > Pennsylvania was the first state to ban slavery in 1780. > > Note that Thomas Jefferson made the international slave trade illegal in 1806-8. So, yes, he led the fight vs slavery, despite being a slaveholder himself. Jefferson was in favor of gradual manumission, not a sudden freeing of all slaves. > > So, In 1776, there wasnt much in the way of organized abolitionist movements. You do acknowledge though that John & Abigail Adams were openly against it and wanted it abolished in 1776? There were other important leaders with them. Franklin by that point was against slavery but acknowledge the compromise was needed to get all 13 colonies to sign. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/130 "2018-07-13T22:10:34Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You do acknowledge though that John & Abigail Adams were openly against it and wanted it abolished in 1776? There were other important leaders with them. Franklin by that point was against slavery but acknowledge the compromise was needed to get all 13 colonies to sign. Yes, some religious sects and a few leaders, but it wasnt really organized, yet. Jefferson was _starting_ to see slavery as evil, but his hands were tied, he couldn’t free his slaves. (He couldnt afford to, in fact he was badly in debt) . ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/131 "2018-07-13T22:13:35Z")
And there were also lots of people who thought slavery was wrong, but also weren’t abolitionists, because that’s a lot of work. There are people who think abortion is wrong who aren’t pro-life activists, they’re just against abortion. Lots of people thought slavery was wrong, not just a tiny minority. Even plenty of slaveowners. Take Jefferson for example. He was clearly able to understand that slavery was wrong and contrary to the values that the United States was founded upon, even while he owned slaves himself. He just didn’t know what to do about it, and didn’t want to bankrupt himself by freeing his slaves. He thought the evil of slavery would have to end eventually somehow, but he didn’t fight to end it himself. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/132 "2018-07-13T22:24:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > He just didn’t know what to do about it, and didn’t want to bankrupt himself by freeing his slaves. He thought the evil of slavery would have to end eventually somehow, but he didn’t fight to end it himself. Yes, he _did_ fight to end it, he ended the International Slave trade. He just was in favor of a slow approach. So, it is fair to call him evil? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/133 "2018-07-13T22:27:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, he _did_ fight to end it, he ended the International Slave trade. He just was in favor of a slow approach. > > So, it is fair to call him evil? It’s fair to say that he was complicated, and did some good things and some bad things. Having slaves, which included brutalization (as well as power-imbalanced non-consensual sex) and terrorizing to ensure the slaves were terrified to try and escape, was a very bad thing that he was involved in. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/134 "2018-07-13T22:48:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You do acknowledge though that John & Abigail Adams were openly against it and wanted it abolished in 1776? There were other important leaders with them. Franklin by that point was against slavery but acknowledge the compromise was needed to get all 13 colonies to sign. Slaveholder Jefferson included an attack on slavery in the first draft of the Declaration of Independence. So, yeah. Admittedly the attack was indirect in parts: [INDENT] He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed again the Liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.[/INDENT] [(1776) The Deleted Passage of the Declaration of Independence •](http://www.blackpast.org/primary/declaration-independence-and-debate-over-slavery) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/135 "2018-07-13T22:51:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s fair to say that he was complicated, and did some good things and some bad things. Having slaves, which included brutalization (as well as power-imbalanced non-consensual sex) and terrorizing to ensure the slaves were terrified to try and escape, was a very bad thing that he was involved in. He really had no choice, unfortunately, which is why he thought slavery was so evil. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/136 "2018-07-13T22:53:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He really had no choice, unfortunately, which is why he thought slavery was so evil. He had lots of choices. He could have made the same choices Ben Franklin and John Adams did, but he chose differently. It’s fair to include those choices in our moral judgment of him, even by the standards of the time (which includes Franklin and Adams). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/137 "2018-07-13T23:27:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He had lots of choices. He could have made the same choices Ben Franklin and John Adams did, but he chose differently. It’s fair to include those choices in our moral judgment of him, even by the standards of the time (which includes Franklin and Adams). Or George Washington, who managed his finances such that he freed his slaves upon his death. Monticello certainly is pretty though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/138 "2018-07-13T23:29:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He had lots of choices. He could have made the same choices Ben Franklin and John Adams did, but he chose differently. It’s fair to include those choices in our moral judgment of him, even by the standards of the time (which includes Franklin and Adams). John Adams never owned any slaves. Franklin inherited six household slaves. Quite easy to free them, which he didnt do until 1781, mind you. Jefferson inherited 187 slaves, most of them fieldworkers. If he had freed them, he’d have gone broke and lost his farm, his land, everything. He would never have been in Congress, never wrote the Declaration, etc. He fought hard against slavery all his political life. If he had freed his slaves in 1773 he never would have passed the ban on the international slave trade. > **[Thomas Jefferson and slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery)** > > Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States, owned more than 600 slaves during his adult life. Jefferson freed two slaves while he lived, and five others were freed after his death, including two of his children from his relationship with his slave (and sister-in-law) Sally Hemings. His other two children with Hemings were allowed to escape without pursuit. After his death, the rest of the slaves were sold to pay off his estate's debts. > Privately, one of Jefferson's reasons for... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/139 "2018-07-13T23:30:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Or George Washington, who managed his finances such that he freed his slaves upon his death. > > Monticello certainly is pretty though. Washington retired quite wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591/140 "2018-07-13T23:45:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > John Adams never owned any slaves. > > Franklin inherited six household slaves. Quite easy to free them, which he didnt do until 1781, mind you. > > Jefferson inherited 187 slaves, most of them fieldworkers. If he had freed them, he’d have gone broke and lost his farm, his land, everything. He would never have been in Congress, never wrote the Declaration, etc. He fought hard against slavery all his political life. If he had freed his slaves in 1773 he never would have passed the ban on the international slave trade. > [Thomas Jefferson and slavery - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery) That’s awfully convenient that in order to do so much good he had to keep dozens of people in brutal bondage (and a few in sexual slavery). If he hadn’t raped Sally Hemings, the USA wouldn’t exist today! And from your cite: > [@](#): > > According to historian Lucia Stanton, Jefferson authorized his overseers to use physical violence against slaves, though probably not as much as some of his neighbors. Jamed Hubbard was a slave in the nailery who ran away on two occasions. The first time Jefferson did not have him whipped, but on the second Jefferson reportedly ordered him severely flogged. Hubbard was likely sold after spending time in jail. Stanton says children suffered physical violence. When a 17-year-old James was sick, one overseer reportedly whipped him “three times in one day.” Violence was commonplace on plantations, including Jefferson’s.[114] According to Marguerite Hughes, Jefferson used “a severe punishment” such as whippings when runaways were captured, and he sometimes sold them to “discourage other men and women from attempting to gain their freedom.”[115] Henry Wiencek cited within a Smithsonian Magazine article several reports of Jefferson ordering the whipping or selling of slaves as punishments for extreme misbehavior or escape.[116] If he hadn’t ordered so many slaves to be brutalized and tortured, America wouldn’t be what it was today! Thank God Jefferson raped and brutalized human beings! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-robert-e-lee/817591.md?page=8)