# What's the Big Deal About Shakespeare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839 "2019-05-11T22:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/21 "2019-05-12T00:33:17Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > …and what to me is **Two Many Cats,** — this quintessence of dust? Not that much dust. It’s mostly cat hair. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/22 "2019-05-12T00:55:49Z")
Did Harold Bloom explicitly say in his book that all non-European cultures didn’t know what it was like to be human before they were finally exposed to Shakespeare, or was he just oblivious to the racism of his claim? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/23 "2019-05-12T02:01:45Z")
and for fans of ‘Authorship’ [controversies](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/who-is-shakespeare-emilia-bassano/588076/), Shakespeare may not even have been a man… ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/24 "2019-05-12T02:21:44Z")
I get it. It’s basically the same thing some people say about _Casablanca_ or _The Wizard of Oz_, or for that matter, a [DC-3](http://www.buffaloairways.com/uploads/images/pages/dc3s-rad-jkm-wir.jpg). Shakespeare can seem not all that, because we aren’t grasping that he _invented_ (or at least he was the first one to synthesize) everything we’re comparing him with. [**Jim B**. may I suggest this 1996 version of Romeo & Juliet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4NLoYQxBw) which uses Shakespeare’s dialog, but in a contemporary setting. The movie seems digitally sped up to me, but even if you only click on random spots, you might have a better appreciation of the Bard. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/25 "2019-05-12T02:23:03Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Did Harold Bloom explicitly say in his book that all non-European cultures didn’t know what it was like to be human before they were finally exposed to Shakespeare, or was he just oblivious to the racism of his claim? Look deeper into Bloom’s work than a post on a message board. I studied under him thirty-some years ago at Yale, along with the other original Deconstructionists. The man has many failings…personal grooming and hygiene in particular…but racism is not one of them. He was particularly adept with Chinese poetics. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/26 "2019-05-12T02:48:17Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I get it. It’s basically the same thing some people say about _Casablanca_ or _The Wizard of Oz_, or for that matter, a [DC-3](http://www.buffaloairways.com/uploads/images/pages/dc3s-rad-jkm-wir.jpg). Shakespeare can seem not all that, because we aren’t grasping that he _invented_ (or at least he was the first one to synthesize) everything we’re comparing him with. > > [**Jim B**. may I suggest this 1996 version of Romeo & Juliet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4NLoYQxBw) which uses Shakespeare’s dialog, but in a contemporary setting. The movie seems digitally sped up to me, but even if you only click on random spots, you might have a better appreciation of the Bard. Or the Josh Whedon directed [Much Ado About Nothing](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2094064/), which I happened to catch yesterday while channel surfing. I’ve tried to watch other versions of the play before but didn’t have the patience for it. This time it was easier to follow the action. The contemporary setting really gives you a better feel for the dialog. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/27 "2019-05-12T03:12:37Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > The comedies will snap yer stix. My favorites are **As You Like It** and **Much Ado About Nothing.**. Everyone seems to love the 1993 movie of the latter, with young Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson as Benedick and Beatrice. Love love love this one. I’ve watched it over and over. Branagh has a way of speaking Shakespearean dialogue that makes it sound like contemporary conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/28 "2019-05-12T03:17:14Z")
I dunno; “nobody can be truly human without Shakespeare” sure strikes me as racist. And absurd on many other grounds, too. How does he account for the fact that in other languages, other authors are the Greatest of All Time? Are Spanish-speaking humans a different species, because they’re shaped by Cervantes instead of Shakespeare? ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/29 "2019-05-12T03:48:24Z")
😕 ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/30 "2019-05-12T03:58:36Z")
It’s like Mr. Natural said to the lady in the flower pot hat: “If you don’t know by now, lady, don’t mess with it!” [http://pixdaus.com/mister-natural-by-robert-crumb-beautiful-diddy-wah-diddy-lan/items/view/302192/](http://pixdaus.com/mister-natural-by-robert-crumb-beautiful-diddy-wah-diddy-lan/items/view/302192/) ---
**Author:** ![Paxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@Paxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paxx)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/31 "2019-05-12T13:04:57Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@Jim B.](#): > > > > But he doesn’t impress me at least anymore than many other authors, esp. of that time. > > Just out of curiosity what other authors “of that time” do you consider just as good? And please don’t say **Edward de Vere** :). When you quoted\*\* Jim B\*\*, you left out the “:):):)” at the end of the OP. It’s clearly a comical dismissal of Shakespeare as the author of the works attributed to him. It is not meant to be taken seriously. Look at this superficially nonsensical sentence: “I must say I find his quotes rather flowery and perhaps concise at times.” Not his writing but his _quotes_? _Rather_ flowery?? Perhaps _concise_??? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/32 "2019-05-12T13:10:18Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The scholar Harold Bloom famously claimed that Shakespeare did no less than inventing _ **our conception of what it is to be human** _: > > > [@](#): > > > > … When Bloom claims that Shakespeare invented the human, however, he doesn’t merely mean that he pioneered these psychological fields in literature before they became established in what gradually became our modern disciplines. According to Bloom, Shakespeare-especially in his creation of Falstaff and Hamlet-so utterly altered human consciousness that after him the world was a different place and we were different creatures. … > > > > …Bloom claims that if Shakespeare had died at twenty-nine, like his friend Christopher Marlowe, the world would be a different place: “we would be very different, because we would think and feel and speak differently. Our ideas would be different, particularly our ideas of the human, since they were, more often than not, Shakespeare’s ideas before they were our own.” > > [http://bostonreview.net/archives/BR24.1/atwan.html](http://bostonreview.net/archives/BR24.1/atwan.html) > > A sweeping claim. I’ll say. Imagine if he had read it [in the original Klingon…](https://twitter.com/marythechief/status/829043152136916995) ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/33 "2019-05-12T15:26:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I dunno; “nobody can be truly human without Shakespeare” sure strikes me as racist. And absurd on many other grounds, too. How does he account for the fact that in other languages, other authors are the Greatest of All Time? Are Spanish-speaking humans a different species, because they’re shaped by Cervantes instead of Shakespeare? I was thinking about this yesterday. Shakespeare really does have a pan-national appeal. Richard Wagner made the whole family sit around and read the plays out loud in the evenings, they are performed in French, Spanish, in the Far East. You don’t see a lot of English or Americans quoting Moliere or Goethe on a regular basis, but there’s a general feeling around the world that knowing Shakespeare is a Good Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/34 "2019-05-12T15:53:30Z")
In addition to the other reasons given, Shakespeare was the dividing line between Middle and Modern English. Not saying he caused the shift, he just happens to be the best-known writer from the period when it happened. He and Richard Burbage were also the first showmen to charge a fixed gate price for admission. Prior to them, admission was free and the players would pass the hat and basically worked as buskers or for tips. The Globe invented the modern practice that allows actors to get fairly and regularly paid. This, according to Bernie Sahlins of Second City. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/35 "2019-05-12T17:40:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I dunno; “nobody can be truly human without Shakespeare” sure strikes me as racist. And absurd on many other grounds, too. How does he account for the fact that in other languages, other authors are the Greatest of All Time? Are Spanish-speaking humans a different species, because they’re shaped by Cervantes instead of Shakespeare? “Nobody can be truly human without Shakespeare,” is not remotely the same as, “Shakespeare shaped our conception of what it means to be human.” I’ve only read excerpts from Bloom’s work, and that was a while ago, so I can’t comment directly on his arguments. But the idea that a particular artist or philosopher shaped the popular conception of what it means to be human should not be controversial in general. If you ask your average American “What does it mean to be human,” you’ll likely get something that contains a vague regurgitation of the concept of natural rights. These ideas can be traced back to a few specific writers. It’s fair to say that those writers influenced the concept of what it means to be human, at least in Western culture. If you ask your average Chinese citizen the same question, you probably don’t get as much Thomas Jefferson in the response. What sets Shakespeare apart is that he’s universal. Sure, Spanish culture was shaped by Cervantes. But it was also shaped by Shakespeare, and arguably to a greater extent than non-Spanish cultures have been shaped by Cervantes. And the same is true for culture after culture - outside of English speaking cultures, Shakespeare is seldom the most important writer, but he’s always _an_ important writer. I don’t know that that necessarily equates to, “Shakespeare shaped the global conception of what it means to be human,” but the basic concept that one person’s ideas can be so powerful and persuasive that they’re adapted by people from every race and culture is pretty much the direct opposite of racist. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/36 "2019-05-12T17:46:59Z")
in one of the Star Trek movies a Klingon said he liked to read the plays in the original Klingon. 🙂 I think that was movie #6 , the last one with the full original Trek cast. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/37 "2019-05-12T18:04:35Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Just out of curiosity what other authors “of that time” do you consider just as good? And please don’t say **Edward de Vere** :). I just remember that there was some author he was a competitor with at the time that sounded similar to me at least. I don’t have time to look it up now. Also I will have to wait till I’m on PC, which may not be for a couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/38 "2019-05-12T18:41:50Z")
The take from QI needs to be seen: https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/qi/episodes/2012/1/ > [@](#): > > - The thing that Sigmund Freud, Mark Twain, Henry James, a loony from Newcastle and the Holy Ghost all have in common is that they did not believe that the plays of Shakespeare were written by Shakespeare himself. Professor Looney wrote a book in 1920 called Shakespeare Identified in which he claimed this. The Shakespearean sceptic movement began in the 19th century, with some people claiming that the plays may have been written by Francis Bacon. > > An insane American woman called Delia Bacon wrote a 625 page book claiming Shakespeare did not write the plays, but made no reference to Francis Bacon. When she died she claimed she was the Holy Ghost. Other candidates for the authorship include Christopher Marlowe and the Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere. Freud had an Oedipus complex theory about Hamlet. Looney claimed that after the Earl’s death in 1604 (at which point Shakespeare was still alive) he left lots of plays which his servant Shakespeare then produced. > > More modern sceptics include Mark Rylance and Derek Jacobi. There is however no real evidence to support the sceptics claims. While sceptics claim we know little about Shakespeare, we are also very few Elizabethan people we know more about. Upon hearing about how a lot of the authorship “controversy” is about the idea that Shakespeare was not a noble man and not a member of the elite, as if that was a reason to deny that a middle class person could achieve a lot or write so well about nobility, David Mitchell replied: “[Shakespeare] did go exactly as far up the society as you would expect a mayor writer to be [back then], it is not like if **now** the best novels are written by the Duke of Westminster…” ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/39 "2019-05-12T20:26:49Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Just out of curiosity what other authors “of that time” do you consider just as good? And please don’t say **Edward de Vere** :). I think _The Revenger’s Tragedy_, attributed to Thomas Middleton, is just as good as anything Willy S. wrote. I have not read or seen any stage/film version of _The Changeling_, credited to Mr. Middleton and William Rowley, but according to Wikipedia, it is “widely regarded as being among the best tragedies of the English Renaissance…” Based largely on my ignorance, it seems like Mr. Middleton was every bit as talented and prolific as Willy S., though perhaps not as consistently first-rate. > **[Thomas Middleton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Middleton)** > > Thomas Middleton (baptised 18 April 1580 – July 1627; also spelt Midleton) was an English Jacobean playwright and poet. He, with John Fletcher and Ben Jonson, was among the most successful and prolific of playwrights at work in the Jacobean period, and among the few to gain equal success in comedy and tragedy. He was also a prolific writer of masques and pageants. > Middleton was born in London and baptised on 18 April 1580. He was the son of a bricklayer, who had raised himself to the status o... ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839/40 "2019-05-12T21:53:47Z")
I was in a production of Middleton’s _Women Beware Women_ at the Yale Dramat back in 1980, directed by George Roy Hill (the Hollywood guy who directed _Butch Cassidy_ and _The Sting)._ I didn’t think the play was any great shakes. I like John Webster, particularly _The Duchess of Malfi._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-big-deal-about-shakespeare/833839.md?page=3)