What's the Catholic Church's position on this?

Well, we’re getting a bit off topic here, but I just have a couple of nits to pick with Arnold’s post there:

Anyone (or at least, any Catholic) can become a eucharistic minister, which means that they stand up in the front of the church with the bowl/chalice, tell you “The Body (or Blood) of Christ”, and give you the wafer/cup. Only an ordained priest, however, can consecrate the bread and wine, after which it is considered the Body and Blood.
As for marriages, deacons (one step below a priest) are also authorized to perform them, and the Church also has a rule whereby a couple who honestly believes that they were legitimately married is considered to be married, so if, for example, a person were impersonating a priest and performed a marriage, but the couple did not know he was an imposter, then they’re still married.

By the way, Dumb Ox, I had always heard that in a pinch, the schmo performing baptism didn’t even need to be Christian; all that is necessary is that the subject or a representative of the subject (parents, usually) sincerely desires baptism, and somebody wets the subject with water (not necessarily holy water) and says “I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Of course, the ceremonial forms (priest presiding, holy water, Catholic sponsor (godparents), etc.) are preferred, if possible.

Chronos

Yep. You might be right about this.

And

Not even necessarily water! You can use whatever liquid is available. This was explained to me by my hyper-Catholic mom when I was eight years old, leading to the inevitable (from and eight-year-old’s perspective) questions: "Well, can you use mud? What about used motor oil? How about Holy Water that’s been frozen into ice? What if you’re in the desert and…

Of course, all this would lead to the even more inevitable Standard Catholic Mom Response, “Why don’t you ask Sister Christine at C.C.D.?” She knew that nobody asked Sister Christine anything at C.C.D. Even God was scared of Sister Christine.

Thanks, Arnold, I agree with your interpretation. I’m not surprised that what the nuns taught me at St. Francis didn’t accord with Catholic doctrine. At times, it seemed like they had a whole different religion.

Sua

disclaimer: The Catholic Encyclopædia posted online at the website I referenced above dates from 1913 (as another poster once pointed out to me.) So some elements of Catholic doctrine may have changed since then.

Chronos: your correction is of course justified. Deacons can perform marriages, and other people can give communion. There are however many functions in the church that are reserved to priests, so confession is not unique in that respect, which is what I was trying to say with my erroneous statements.

But isn’t that part of the point of Last Rites? It allows the deceased to Confess what they meant to before they became physically unable to do so. Of course, never having experienced Last Rites, I might be misunderstanding its purpose. Anyone? Bueller?

There really isn’t anything called “Last Rites”, it’s either called “Anointing of the Sick” or “Extreme Unction.”

It is supposed to be the completion of Baptism. A priest anoints a sick person’s head (usually someone who is very near death) and prays for the sick person’s soul. It really doesn’t have anything to do with forgiveness. If a sick person has something that they want to get off their chest, that person better speak up while it’s still possible.

A strict Catholic will tell you that you better confess everything. Others will let you off easier.

Your forgiveness may vary.

one kind of important point-

Purgatory is not in any way Catholic Dogma. Rather, it is a theological opinion that was formulated a few centuries ago (1300s maybe? ). so (to be really anal) none of this purgatory matter is the Catholic Church’s position.

Purgatory? Where do you think you are bub?

Am I the only one that reads the Catholic Encyclopædia here? JB, I know what you’re getting for Christmas this year.

Catholic Encyclopædia - Purgatory

(bolding mine)
Now, if you’re an Albigensis, a Waldensis, or a Hussite, I’ll admit that you may deny the existency of purgatory, but then the Catholic church would consider you a heretic.

(same disclaimer as above, the Cath. Encycl. online is from 1913, so there may have been some changes in doctrine abolishing purgatory, in which case I’ll eat my hat, but I’m sure that if purgatory had been nixed I would have heard about it.)

If Purgatory weren’t still a part of Catholic dogma, there would be little reason for having very big religious services for All Souls Day on November 2. If you go to church that day, you will hear lots of talk about Purgatory.

All Saints Day, November 1, is for honoring souls in heaven regardless of whether or not they have been canonized. All Souls Day is for the “rest” of the souls.

The way I always thought of Purgatory was like a big carwash. I’m serious. I first heard of it in first grade. I thought you would stop there, and the people there would clean out your soul…the sins so you could then pass on to heaven.
“Oh, she lied to her mother! Over here, earl! Bring the Soul Wax!”

And hey, at least it gives you a chance…you aren’t going to automatically burn in Hell.

Hi all. I would like to point one thing out about the Purgatory. In the original Bible(the Hebraic version) there is no mention anywhere whatsoever of any Purgatory. So where does the Purgatory come from? It was invented by the Church for lucrative purposes. The Purgatory holds one’s soul after his death until he has paid(with time) for his sins. So by paying(with money!) the Church while still alive, you could buy time off your sins. So the whole Purgatory concept was invented to rip off extremely poor peasants of their hard earned money for something that doesn’t exist in the Hebraic Bible. And didn’t priests make a vow of poverty? sheesh…

p.s.: This post is fueled by facts, but also MY opinion about Catholicism, so, would be flamers, stay away. I haven’t said anything offensive. And if anyone was offended, well, apologies. Remember, Free Speech!

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults,
Murder ain’t “Venial”.
Are you sure that Mr. Hypothetical was not struck by a golf-cart while crossing the fair-way?

I’m not about to try to answer every point raised, here, but let’s at least put the RCC teachings into a coherent form so that it appears to make sense from someone’s perspective.

First a note on sources:

The Catholic Encyclopedia that is found on-line is the version that was originally written between 1910 and 1919. It is an excellent source of historical information. The major points of theology have not changed. However, the explanations of theology are couched in the mindset and the language of the American Catholic Church in the days far prior to the Second Vatican Council. There is an open hostility to non-Catholic views and a “circle the wagons” mentality that is alien to the views of the Church in 2000. The language also assumes a certain knowledge of Catholic religious jargon. Periodically, a word or phrase will be used that is totally alien to the apparent meaning in plain English.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a much better document for discovering how the Church expresses what it believes, today. It still has the issue of the religious jargon, but there are a number of attempts to write without the jargon and there are, frequently, explanatory notes (at least in the printed version–I have not noticed them in the on-line version, but I have not been looking for them).

On to the issues:

My attempt to describe the issues of sin, forgiveness and redemption go like this:

Humans sin. God forgives. (That was easy.) When a person sins, they are separated from God in the Body of Christ (the Church–not the RCC, but the body of all those who believe). To be reconciled with the Body of Christ, one must express contrition and make restitution of some sort.

At this point, we immediately run into an objection from our Protestant brethren who insist that Jesus has removed all sin for all time. The RCC does not dispute this. From the perspective of Salvation, Jesus has removed our sin so that we might enter Heaven. However, the RCC sees the need for the person to actually take responsibility for his/her actions. It refers to the “temporal punishment” due to sin. This is actually viewed as the healing aspect of the wound of sin. Remember, in sin, the Body of Christ is damaged because, to the extent that one sins, one is not open to God’s Grace and is not able to share God’s love with other people. The “temporal punishment” is the action on the part of the sinner that is intended to heal the heart and open oneself more fully to God’s Grace.

Since the “temporal punishment” is intended to be a spiritual healing, the penance handed out by the priest in at the Sacrament of Reconciliation often takes the form of prayer. (This, of course, shows up in the inadequately explained and too often given without explanation “Three Our Fathers and Three Hail Mary’s”. The intent is supposed to be that the penance is a healing act of prayer, but it has slipped into a brief and meaningless punishment as people were not taught the meaning of what they were being asked.)

So we now have a condition where people are supposed to be attempting to ask God for healing as an aspect of being Reconciled to the Body of Christ. However, it is pretty well recognized that no one will open their hearts fully to God, even in prayer. In the concept of Purgatory, the Church recognizes that before a person may be fully united with God after death, they must be fully healed. The pain of Purgatory, usually represented as “hell lite” is simply the remorse that people feel as they reconsider their lives and open themselves to God’s love. The pain is a healing pain.

There is Scriptural precedent for this. Unfortunately for harmonious discussion, the “Scripture” cited is among the Apocrypha/Deutero-Canonical works that the Protestants have set aside from their Scripture because it was not included in the Jewish canon. (That is a different discussion.) In II Maccabees 12:39-45, Judas Maccabee arranges for prayers and sacrifices to be offered for the sins of several of his slain men, in the hopes of the Resurrection. This raises two separate beliefs that are held by the Church: that people may be healed of the effects of sin after death, and that other people may, through petitions to God, aid in that healing.

Of course, once Martin Luther, who was already (legitimately) mad about the abuse of indulgences looked at Scripture and decided to exclude what became known as the Apocrypha, the ability of the RCC and the Protestants to even discuss the issue was seriously hamstrung. (I am not claiming Luther was wrong in his decision, only pointing out that there is a history, here, that gets lost when Catholics and Protestants battle over these issues.)

The indulgences that were so seriously abused were not “get out of Hell free” cards (although they were certainly sold that way). Anyone who has ever looked at one of the old prayer books that mentioned indulgences will see that they are usually tagged with a line such as “3 days”. This does not mean that the indulgence is good for getting out of Purgatory three days early. It is a reference to some arcane and archaic method of determining how much prayer and sacrifice should be offered for spiritual healing. The idea is that a person, having sinned, may tap into the spirituality of the Church to ask for the spiritual healing that one needs. If you look at the proclamation that Phil cited, you will note that what JPII stated was that by acts of prayer and charity, the people may participate in the indulgence of the Jubilee Year. While I recognize the thread of belief that runs from II Maccabees through the statements of JPII, I also recognize that there is so much baggage associated with this stuff that I wish they would just stop talking about it. (Even the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia was at pains to explain that an indulgence did nothing to remove sin, but it then goes on to “explain” indulgences in incomprehensible jargon.)
The selling of indulgences against which Luther reacted was corrupt from the perspective of the Church in many ways–lying about what they were, simony (selling blessings for profit), etc.–and is a shameful episode.

As to the whole “die without confession” scenario, we have to look at a couple of other points. First off, the old “mortal and venial sins” dichotomy is not predicated merely on how “big” the sin appears to be. I will use mortal and venial because most people are familiar with the words, although the RCC has stopped categorizing sins in that fashion. The whole point of a mortal sin is/was that it was a deliberate separation from God. Here was an act that was so clearly evil that to choose to commit that act represented a deliberate choice to exclude God from one’s life. The old high school manuals that talked about how long a kiss could continue before it became a mortal sin were stupid and wrong. (Some author was trying to quantify how bad lust was–and doing a very bad job of it.)

Murder, suicide, adultery, and the rest of the biggies were assumed to be mortal sins because they were very bad. If someone could choose to take a life or choose to violate their vows of faithfulness to their spouse, it was a pretty good indication that they had rejected God’s Law and God’s Love.

However, the necessary trinity for mortal sin was always encapsulated in the phrase “Know it, Will, it, Do it.” To truly separate oneself from God, a person had to understand how bad the act was, they had to choose to commit the act in spite of that knowledge, and they had to actually commit the act. So if a person, knowing that an act would separate them from God, chose to go ahead and then actually did the deed, they were doomed to Hell if they did not repent of their deed. A person who did not understand how serious the act was, or who did not do it recklessly ignoring the fact that it would separate them from God, or who ultimately turned away from doing the deed, would not have closed themselves off from God.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) was the forum chosen by the church to provide a way for a person to repent of their deed. As noted in the earlier post, there is a Scriptural basis for that decision (John 20:22-23). However, forgiveness is from God, and the Church does not presume to say when God may or may not extend His forgiveness. The church expects that a person who commited a mortal sin and died without going to confession will go to hell, but if that person truly repented, then God will save them. (The Church does expect that they will do a fair amount of healing/penance in Purgatory, of course.)

The sins formerly called venial are those sins which are the result of our not being fully open to God, but not being closed to Him, either. They are the small choices we make that interfere with our ability to accept God’s love and share it with other people. The Irish monks got the idea of confessing those smaller faults so as to help ourselves open ourselves to God’s healing.


Minor point:

The theological speculation place is Limbo (Dante’s First Circle of Hell). The idea was that a person who had lived a righteous life did not deserve to go to hell, but there are those famous passages that some fundies like to quote about no one getting in to see God without uttering particular words regarding Jesus. One thought was that those righteous pagans would be shut out from the presence of God, but would not be sent to torment. This became Limbo and is the source of our word for betwixt-and-between. It was never RCC Doctrine (although I knew more than a few people that believed it was). It is not even part of theological speculation any more. Generally we figure that God can bring in whomever he wants to heaven, regardless how we may have mis-interpreted his Scripture.

Excellent post tomndebb.

There will be no place in Purgatory for you if the SDMB gets to decide.

tomndebb, excellent post, as usual. One question and one comment:

Q: I’m a little confused with your comments about “what became known as the Apocrypha”. I had always thought the Xian canon had been set very early on. Am I wrong, or do Prods look to a slightly different version of the Bible than Papists?

Comment: Limbo - I was taught that Limbo is where infants who died before Baptism went. They had no sin but Original Sin. Limbo was described to me as just like Heaven, but JC doesn’t come around to visit. Yet another thing about Xianity I found completely unfair, and yet another seed in my (rather early) departure from the faith. Warning - be careful what you teach kids; they may be listening. :wink:

Sua

2D question first: An unbaptized child has committed no “actual” sin and is, therefore, in the same situation as a righteous pagan–unable to come to Heaven without the salvific act of Baptism, but not deserving of the punishment of Hell. When Limbo was first dreamed up, the theologians were mostly concerned with the great men of the past who were known to have been good, but who never became Christian. The typical 20th Century American schoolkid (and their parents) cared little about the salvation of Vergil, but were concerned about the baby who died of SIDS or the “pagan babies” in the “missionary lands.” So the emphasis of the story shifted regarding who it described.

Dumb idea, condemning God to condemn people (even mildly) in order to force a phrase of Scripture to fit every specific situation. I’m glad we’ve dropped it.

1st question: At the time that Christianity arose, the Jewish canon had not closed. (cmkeller and I have not agreed on this point in the past, but that is a different discussion and is not germane to this thread.) A number of Jewish religious tracts were used by the early Chistians as Scripture, that did not meet the standards set at the Jewish council/synod of Jamnia around 100 CE. Many of these works expressed beliefs held by early Jewish Christians that were found to be heretical when the school at Jamnia reviewed them. (This is not a statement that the Jewish scholars rejected them because the Christians referred to them, only that beliefs that were current in some portions of the Jewish population who were attracted to Christianity were found to be outside the core Jewish belief–a position that I agree is true.)

When the Jewish canon was closed, these books had already been used by Christians for 60 years. By that time, the Christians had already begun to become more of a Gentile religion (and there was no warm friendship between the mainstream Jews and the heretical Christian Jews), so the Christian community did not go back and throw out the books that they had been using simply to bring their libraries in line with good Jewish thought.

Now the Christians were aware that they were including books not in the Jewish canon and they labelled them deutero-canonical, or second canon. There were efforts throughout the middle ages to evaluate those books to see whether some of them should not have been included as Scripture. When Martin Luther began to re-evaluate Scripture, he decided that those books had been included spuriously, since they appear as “intertestamental” works written after the final books of the Jewish OT, but before the NT. (It did not hurt his opinion that several of them supported ideas that he opposed on theological grounds, such as praying for the dead. Luther also considered paring several of the books out of the New Testament, but gave up that idea.)

Of course, once Luther had chucked those books out, the RCC decided that they all had to stay, so there has not been any reconsideration of their fitness as Scripture since that time.

The inclusion of the Apocrypha in Catholic bibles is the source of periodic charges by some of the loonier fundies that the RCC has “written its own books” to “add” to the bible. (All of the OT Apocrypha had been written 100 years or more prior to the birth of Jesus.)

The Apocrypha includes Tobit, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus, the Book of Baruch (a prophet) and the Letter of Jeremiah (often the sixth chapter of Baruch); the First and Second Books of Maccabees; several stories from Daniel, (namely, the Song of the Three, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon) and extensive portions of the Book of Esther.

(There are also Apocryphal books from the New testament, but they are all pretty much agreed upon by Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, only surfacing every few years as some nut with a need for a bestseller publishes another exposé that the Christian churches are “hiding” something. (Apocrypha can be translated as “hidden.”))