# What's the Connection Between wagner's Operas and Naziism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234 "2007-07-02T15:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/21 "2007-07-02T21:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] the renunciation of love and compassion as the path to power… ral recognition that he is NOT someone whose music Israelis want to hear. [/QUOTE] Nit: Albricht renounces love to forge the ring. Wotan can then safely “steal from the thief” without making the same sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/22 "2007-07-02T21:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Should a survivor get off the boat in Israel and hear the music played at Auschwitz, it would, well it would pretty much suck. [/QUOTE] I know someone who really hates Pink Floyd, and I think I have an idea why (although I never asked her to confirm.) Let’s say they played Pink Floyd at the concentration camps. If Israel had a state-run classic rock station would they be overreacting to never play the Floyd? Of course they would. Just like I am overreacting in my visceral dislike for the veil for a somewhat personal reason, despite it being a valid fashion choice for some people. But if someone came into my home in a veil I would let them in despite my intense hatred for it. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/23 "2007-07-02T21:58:32Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] Chopin was Polish. This would not have made him particularly beloved by the Nazis. [/QUOTE] Well, they would have listened to him for about three weeks, then rolled right on into Stravinsky. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/24 "2007-07-02T21:59:40Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] Chopin was Polish. This would not have made him particularly beloved by the Nazis. [/QUOTE] That’s misreading my point, either intentionally or not. Is ‘Wagner was antisemitic’ a valid argument for boycotting his music? If one feels the answer is yes, then consistency should apply, and no more mazurkas shall be heard. [QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Should a survivor get off the boat in Israel and hear the music played at Auschwitz, it would, well it would pretty much suck. [/QUOTE] Was _only_ Wagner played in concentration camps? Again, I’m arguing that he is being singled out. I’m not saying I think I’d have been friends with the guy. But avoiding him, or defending those who do, should be for reasons which aren’t circuitously chosen so that they only apply to him. Edit: nice one, **OneCentStamp** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/25 "2007-07-02T22:12:54Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] That’s misreading my point, either intentionally or not. Is ‘Wagner was antisemitic’ a valid argument for boycotting his music? If one feels the answer is yes, then consistency should apply, and no more mazurkas shall be heard. [/quote] You were putting Chopin in juxtaposition with Beethoven as a great German. I was just pointing out that Chopin was not German, anti-semite or not. Indeed, he would have been considered less-than-human by the Nazis. His nationalistic Slavic-influenced music, like the aforementioned mazurkas, wouldn’t have endeared him to the Nazis either. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/26 "2007-07-02T22:17:19Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] You were putting Chopin in juxtaposition with Beethoven as a great German. [/quote] I didn’t intend nationality to be part of the Chopin argument, and apologise if it came across like that. My point is: _ **Wagner was antisemitic** _ - but so was Chopin _…and completely separately_ _ **Wagner was held in high esteem by Hitler** _ - but so was Beethoven It’s a single point, not multiple ones, in that the separate accusations against Wagner should be just that. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/27 "2007-07-02T22:44:33Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Was _only_ Wagner played in concentration camps? [/QUOTE] I haven’t read every Holocaust memoir out there, but from the ones that I _have_ read, I don’t know that it was played much at all. Most Wagner pieces require a pretty large orchestra and a lot of instruments. The relatively small Jewish ensembles in the camps seem to have played mostly [light airs, military marches, and popular songs](http://death-camps.org/reinhard/arsongs.html). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/28 "2007-07-02T22:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] I haven’t read every Holocaust memoir out there, but from the ones that I _have_ read, I don’t know that it was played much at all. Most Wagner pieces require a pretty large orchestra and a lot of instruments. The relatively small Jewish ensembles in the camps seem to have played mostly [light airs, military marches, and popular songs](http://death-camps.org/reinhard/arsongs.html). [/QUOTE] I presumed by ‘being played’, it was meant that recordings were broadcast across a loudspeaker system (which I also presume was in place at the camps). Kind of like _The Shawshank Redemption_, but very much not. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/29 "2007-07-02T22:56:42Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] From Wiki: "_As a result of this appropriation by the Nazi party, Wagner’s operas have never been staged in the modern state of Israel. "_ [/QUOTE] Apart from [that one time.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1428634.stm) . Mind you, it seemed to be [very controversial.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1455466.stm) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/30 "2007-07-02T23:11:43Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] Apart from [that one time.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1428634.stm) . Mind you, it seemed to be [very controversial.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1455466.stm) [/QUOTE] That wasn’t a performance of the opera, only of the prelude. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/31 "2007-07-02T23:23:32Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] I presumed by ‘being played’, it was meant that recordings were broadcast across a loudspeaker system [/QUOTE] That is my understanding. There is no mention of Wagner in Laurence Rees’ _Auschwitz,_ however. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/32 "2007-07-02T23:40:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I read once that Nietzsche (whose thinking was so influential on the Nazis, or at least the more intellectual of them) once published a pamphlet proving his onetime idol Wagner had Jewish blood – not because Nietzsche was anti-semitic, but because he disapproved of Wagner’s anti-semitism. Can’t find anything about that [here,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche) though – unless you count [“Nietzsche contra Wagner.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche_contra_Wagner) [/QUOTE] You’re no doubt thinking of the much argued about footnote to _[The Case of Wagner](http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/wagner.htm)_ in which Nietzsche, some time after Wagner’s death, [mused](http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vulture_.htm): > [@](#): > > But was Wagner anyway a German? One has grounds for such a question. It is difficult to discover any sort of German characteristics in him. Like the great student he was, he learnt to imitate much that was German - that’s all. His nature itself contradicts what hitherto has been felt of as German - not to speak of the German musician! His father was an actor named Geyer. _Ein Geyer ist beinahe schon ein Adler_. [A vulture is almost an eagle]. What has hitherto been treated, in Wagner’s ‘Life’, as a circumlocution, is a ‘_fable convenue_’, if nothing worse. The significance of this passage and the corresponding parts of Wagner’s autobiography have been controversially pored over for the last century. One can speculate about what either of them believed about the matter, but the one thing that’s reasonably clear amidst all the arguments is that - regardless of whether he was the father - there’s no evidence that Ludwig Geyer was even partially Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/33 "2007-07-03T01:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] That is my understanding. There is no mention of Wagner in Laurence Rees’ _Auschwitz,_ however. [/QUOTE] Is there mention of _any_ recorded music being played over a loudspeaker? Did the camps have sound systems that were capable of doing that? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/34 "2007-07-03T01:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] Is there mention of _any_ recorded music being played over a loudspeaker? Did the camps have sound systems that were capable of doing that? [/QUOTE] I did find a cite for Wagner’s favorite conductor being [Jewish](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Wagner.html) , but nothing of music in the camps. Rees is more concerned with the mechanics of death than public address systems. For example, Auschwitz was the only camp to tattoo prisoners. My nephew asked a survivor at a swimming pool in Connecticut why she wrote on herself. I did not hear her answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/35 "2007-07-03T02:38:58Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Hitler also was a fan of vegetarianism, motherhood and gun-control. It seems to me that banning stuff that Hitler just happened to like is a very strange reason. [/QUOTE] Let me tell you about my mother. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/36 "2007-07-03T02:49:14Z")
Neitehr Beethoven nor Chopin wrote operas about the master race, about destruction being necessary and good, about the triumph of the German soldier over even the ancient gods, about renouncing love. (Is Alberich meant as a stereotypical Jew?) The issue of whether an artist’s politics should influence our appreciation of the art is not an easy one. The issue persists to this day. Left-wingers often don’t like John Wayne westerns or WWII movies, not because they’re not good movies, but because of the politics implicitly underlying them. Right-wingers denounce Jane Fonda’s acting career because of her politics. For many Israelis, rightly or wrongly, Wagner symbolizes Naziism. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/37 "2007-07-03T03:00:20Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Neitehr Beethoven nor Chopin wrote operas about the master race, about destruction being necessary and good, about the triumph of the German soldier over even the ancient gods, about renouncing love. (Is Alberich meant as a stereotypical Jew?) [/QUOTE] To take the last first, I couldn’t help but wonder if the Neibelungens in the film _Die Nibelungen_ were intended to be Jews. I don’t know if Fritz Lang was an anti semite. The film was made in 1924. The Ring isn’t about a master race, it’s about men versus the rule and laws of the gods. There are no German soldiers in the opera. Alberich who renounces love to forge the ring is a bad guy, although he only becomes evil when tormented by the Rhine maidens. The Destruction of the gods, which by Gotterdammerung Wotan will allow, indeed desires, paves the way not for NSDAP, but for men. How many times have you listened to the Ring Cycle or read the libretos? 🙂 [QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] For many Israelis, rightly or wrongly, Wagner symbolizes Naziism. [/QUOTE] Indeed, and while I enjoy the operas I do not blame them for not playing Wagner in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![lexan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/73ab20/32.png) [@lexan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/38 "2007-07-03T03:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Did the NP ever make vegetarianism a party goal? [/QUOTE] Certainly not. Hitler wasn’t a particularly committed vegetarian; at various times in his life, he adopted a vegetarian diet, but never as a permanent lifestyle. The vegetarian movement was suppressed under Nazi rule, with the Vegetarier-Bund Deutschlands (the leading German vegetarian organization) being forced to disband, and vegetarian magazines being forced to cease publication. It’s my understanding that this wasn’t out of any particular hostility to vegetarianism by the Nazis, but rather out of fear of any independent political organization existing. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/39 "2007-07-03T06:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gorilla Man** : Beethoven always gets a free pass from Wagner-haters, even though his music was also paraded by the Nazis as a great achievement of the German race. And Chopin’s antisemitism gets ignored. The Nazis didn’t _have_ to parade Beethoven’s work. It was already well-known and loved. You can’t just choose to unlove a piece like the _Ninth Symphony_. And there was no need to. What he had done was a great achievement not just for “the German race,” but for the human race. You say that Chopin’s anti-semitism gets ignored. Should there be commentary on every recording? That’s a possibility. Certainly there should be mention in every biography including on film. All of that would still reach a limited audience. I have loved Chopin’s work since I was a child. I had no idea until I read your post that he was an anti-semite. _Now_ I will commence ignoring his long past anti-semitism. It is dead and buried with him. Maybe it is his music that redeems him. I do not know. I do know that if the Israelis ever decided not to listen to him for any reason at all, I would not insist that they should do otherwise. I do not care for Wagner or his music. But I have cherished friends who do. It is very masculine opera, I think. If I liked it, I would listen. I have no interest in insisting what anyone else’s feelings about it should be. The film _Playing for Time_ was about a small orchestra made up of prisoners who played for the entertainment of Nazi officials. I believe that it was based on a true story. It starred Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Alexander. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/40 "2007-07-03T06:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] The Nazis didn’t _have_ to parade Beethoven’s work. It was already well-known and loved. You can’t just choose to unlove a piece like the _Ninth Symphony_. And there was no need to. What he had done was a great achievement not just for “the German race,” but for the human race. [/QUOTE] The Nazis didn’t _have_ to parade Wagner’s work. It was already well-known and loved. You can’t just choose to unlove a piece like the _Ring_. And there was no need to. What he had done was a great achievement not just for “the German race,” but for the human race. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234.md?page=3)