# What's the Connection Between wagner's Operas and Naziism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234 "2007-07-02T15:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/41 "2007-07-03T10:16:11Z")
Apparently even the Master Race couldn’t stomach endless hours of tedium punctuated by the clinically obese bellowing and screeching like buggered bison. [How the Nazi’s took flight from Wagner](http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2116994,00.html) > [@](#): > > According to popular mythology, night after night during the Nazi era Germans flooded into opera houses to watch enthralled as Rhinemaidens and Valkyries dominated the stage. > > But Wagner, far from being the Third Reich’s “house composer”, actually became much less popular during Hitler’s rule, according to new research. > > The Germans were much more keen on Carmen, Bizet’s tale of a soldier’s scandalous obsession with a Gypsy; and on Madama Butterfly, Puccini’s opera about an officer’s doomed liaison with a Japanese courtesan - neither particularly appropriate tales by the standards of Nazi ideology. > > \ > > The party faithful’s devotion to Wagner has also been exaggerated, according to Carr. We may think of Wagner as the soundtrack to Nazism, with newsreels of Hitler at Bayreuth and the famous Wagner performances at the Nuremburg rallies. However, according to the memoirs of Albert Speer and Hitler’s secretary, Traudl Junge, most Nazis were bored silly at the prospect of watching five-hour-long epics in which, frequently, little happens. > > At the 1933 gala performance of Die Meistersinger, for instance, so few turned up that a furious Hitler sent patrols to drag party members out of beer gardens and brothels, according to Speer. And during one performance of Tristan and Isolde, Junge recalled a member of Hitler’s group dropping off and having to be rescued before collapsing over the railings of the box they were in. His rescuer had himself been asleep for most of the performance. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/42 "2007-07-03T12:02:23Z")
Yes, I think the german people were pretty bored with Wagner. I was just watching DAS BOOT-there is a very funny scene where the sub’s officers are in the wardroom,and the radio officer pipes in some Wagner music-and the Kapitan bitches-“can’t they play something other than that shit?”. The crew preferred jazz. To Wagner fans : how DO you stay awake through this stuff? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/43 "2007-07-03T12:23:27Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] To Wagner fans : how DO you stay awake through this stuff? 😕 [/QUOTE] Wotan does spend an inordinate amount of time recounting “Last time, on _The Ring_” as he puts Brunhilde to sleep surrounded by magic fire. :rolleyes: The Liebestold (sp?) from Tristan and Isolde has been compared to “Young Lions making love”, but I doubt your average _Friends_ viewer would enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/44 "2007-07-03T12:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] To Wagner fans : how DO you stay awake through this stuff? 😕 [/QUOTE] I got a Wagner tape once but I only listened to it once for several years. Then I listened to it again and thought “Wow! This opera really is very coherent, and has nice subtle themes linking everything together running through it! I can’t believe I didn’t like it originally!” Then I looked at the tape cover, and it was a best of. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/45 "2007-07-03T12:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > The Ring isn’t about a master race, it’s about men versus the rule and laws of the gods. There are no German soldiers in the opera. Alberich who renounces love to forge the ring is a bad guy, although he only becomes evil when tormented by the Rhine maidens. The Destruction of the gods, which by Gotterdammerung Wotan will allow, indeed desires, paves the way not for NSDAP, but for men. > How many times have you listened to the Ring Cycle or read the libretos? Well, actually, several times. On a literal level, of course, you’re correct. On a thematic and symbolic level, however, it’s easy to see Nazi propogandists reading the story as supportive of their cause. - Siegmund and Siegfried are great heroes on account of selection (and breeding) by the gods. That’s very much in line with a “master race” concept. - Both Siegmund and Siegfried are Germans and they are fighters, hence they are (at least symbollically) German soldiers. (I’m ignoring the assertion of the French Acadamy that they are, in fact, French.\*) - The destruction of the gods can be viewed as a bad thing rather than a good thing. Yes, the opera intends that it’s a good thing, paving the way for freedom of will, but note that the whole thing is fated, so it’s pretty much ambiguous. The message can easily be read that love and compassion are weaknesses that lead to destruction. Whether this was what Wagner intended is irrelevant. This is the way the opera(s) can easily be read, and hence their attraction to Nazi philosophy and their loathing by Jews and other Holocaust survivors. - [sub]Don’t bother to correct me. This is a joke.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/46 "2007-07-03T12:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] - Siegmund and Siegfried are great heroes on account of selection (and breeding) by the gods. That’s very much in line with a “master race” concept. [/QUOTE] I must point out that Siegfried is the son of Siegmund and his sister, Sieglende. That hardly seems to be Master Race stuff. 🙂 Wotan seems to have sexual congress with the same sense of direction as Alexander the Great rather than with some master plan in mind. [QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Whether this was what Wagner intended is irrelevant. This is the way the opera(s) can easily be read, and hence their attraction to Nazi philosophy and their loathing by Jews and other Holocaust survivors. [/QUOTE] I have no problem with that and as I posted, completely understand. One doesn’t hear Wagner in Israel, but does at my house, although sadly Mrs. Plant holds Wagnerian opera in the same low esteem as she does Jazz and the Blues. Shaw also holds that Gotterdammerung has nothing to do with his allegory and is merely high opera. An argument as Grand Art or Nazi allegory would disagree with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/47 "2007-07-03T13:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] I got a Wagner tape once but I only listened to it once for several years. [/QUOTE] Wow, that _is_ a long opera! ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/48 "2007-07-03T14:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] To Wagner fans : how DO you stay awake through this stuff? 😕 [/QUOTE] By having an appreciation for great art and an attention span greater than the average teenager. Here’s the thing: Wotan’s long explanations are tedious dramatically. But they’re still set to glorious music. So you close your eyes and listen. It also helps to know that after his monologue, the Act II finale is coming up, and that makes it all worth it. ETA: That sounded snarky. Didn’t mean it too. Sorry if it came off that way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/49 "2007-07-03T15:41:09Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] To take the last first, I couldn’t help but wonder if the Neibelungens in the film _Die Nibelungen_ were intended to be Jews. [/QUOTE] [Nibelungs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelung) = Burgundians, or sometimes dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/50 "2007-07-03T17:01:05Z")
Let me put a big disclaimer here because my memory is lame and my cite for this is at home. It anyone cares, I can look it up tonight. I seem to remember from Shirer’s book that Wagner’s widow was a big supporter of the Nazis in the early days of the party. Hitler took advantage of this and buddied up to her during the time he was trying to ‘legitimize’ the party with the German public. In other words, he used her (and by proxy, Wagner’s) celebrity to his advantage by getting her endorsement. Someone feel free to correct me if I’m thinking about the wrong widow. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/51 "2007-07-03T17:59:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Nibelungs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelung) = Burgundians, or sometimes dwarves. [/QUOTE] In the Operas, think Ferengi with the national occupation of mining and metallurgy rather than commerce. They are particularly disgusting looking in Lang’s film, which given the association with NSDAP causes one to wonder of they are intended to be a caricature of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/52 "2007-07-03T18:06:09Z")
[QUOTE=Tully Mars] Someone feel free to correct me if I’m thinking about the wrong widow. [/QUOTE] [Cosima Wagner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosima_Wagner) died in 1930. I believe there was some effort at a relationship on Hitler’s part with one of Wagner’s daughters, Isolde or Eva. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/53 "2007-07-03T18:59:50Z")
Interesting to note that the opera I’ve seen mentioned (no good sources at hand right now) as Hitler’s favorite among Wagner’s works is _Rienzi, der Letzte der Tribunen_– a singularly unsuccessful work, at least in modern times. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/54 "2007-07-03T19:01:35Z")
[QUOTE=Tully Mars] Someone feel free to correct me if I’m thinking about the wrong widow. [/QUOTE] You’re possibly thinking of Eva Wagner, who was married to the racist theorist [Houston Stewart Chamberlain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain) and hence met Hitler in Bayreuth in the Twenties. Or possibily [Winifred Wagner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winifred_Wagner), who was Wagner’s daughter-in-law and the dominant figure in the family during the Third Reich. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/55 "2007-07-03T19:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=Figaro] _Rienzi, der Letzte der Tribunen_– a singularly unsuccessful work, at least in modern times. [/QUOTE] There were so many deaths on stage that Wagner’s sister became physically ill upon reading the libretto. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/56 "2007-07-03T19:37:25Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] There were so many deaths on stage that Wagner’s sister became physically ill upon reading the libretto. 🙂 [/QUOTE] “Deaths on stage” makes me think of Leonard Warren. Time to dust off some CDs and bask in Ultimate Vocal Splendor… ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/57 "2007-07-03T23:06:47Z")
My father was a great Wagner fan and never bothered by the man’s feelings on Jews. Personally, I think a performance of Wagner should be preceded by a Jew saying “Who extincted who, Nazi?” I think his music should be performed in Israel simply because his work being conducted by a Jew, and performed entirely by Jews, for the enjoyment of a Jewish audience would enrage him. ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/58 "2007-07-04T02:28:02Z")
Well, I looked in Shirer’s book and I could not find the reference to the famous widow that I remembered. I did find the references to Eva and Winfred mentioned by **bonzer** , but that was not who I was thinking of. I would probably have to read the whole book again to find it. More to the OP, I did find this quote attributed to Hilter, “Whoever wants to understand Nationalist Socialist must know Wagner.” Quoting Shirer, Wagner’s operas “… recalling so vividly the the world of German antiquity with its heroic myths, its fighting pagan gods and heroes, its blood feuds and primitive tribal codes … inspired the myths of modern Germany …” and the Nazis adopted those myths as their own. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/59 "2007-07-04T03:50:03Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] …I think his music should be performed in Israel simply because his work being conducted by a Jew, and performed entirely by Jews, for the enjoyment of a Jewish audience would enrage him. [/QUOTE] If it meant deutschmarks in his pockets, I don’t think he would have minded too much. After reading his published letters and memoirs and lots and lots of books about the guy (early in the 20th century, it was claimed that more words had been published about Wagner than any other human being save Jesus and Napoleon), I’ve gotten the impresson that he disliked Jews whose operas got performed more than his did, like Meyerbeer So it was a sort of shallow prejudice, a la “All Jews suck…except for my buddy Goldberg. Oh, and my pal Eddie Rosenthal. And all those conductors who revere my work.” Oh, hell. I should probably admit that I like [Franz von Stuck](http://franz_von_stuck.tripod.com/paintings.html) as well. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234/60 "2007-07-04T04:00:00Z")
[QUOTE=Tully Mars] Quoting Shirer, Wagner’s operas “… recalling so vividly the the world of German antiquity with its heroic myths, its fighting pagan gods and heroes, its blood feuds and primitive tribal codes … inspired the myths of modern Germany …” [/QUOTE] Brings to mind Emperor Wilhelm II, who was called “Supreme Warlord” during WWI, named the 9mm Pa cartridge, “To be prepared for peace, be prepared for War” and lectured his army leaving, I believe for China, “To be feared as the Huns”. He also tried to make a treaty with Nicholas II of Russia, being respectfully “Admiral of the Atlantic”, and “Admiral of the Pacific”, but here I truly digress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-connection-between-wagners-operas-and-naziism/410234.md?page=4)