# What's the current status of "classical" music? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483 "2004-06-28T02:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/21 "2004-06-28T21:33:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Like anything else in the “arts,” there are gray areas. In this context, though, I think of the borderline as the moat drawn around academia: “art” music is a product of musical education: giants standing shoulders, as it were: composers who are \*schooled \* in composition and who compose within that tradition. > > Pop music, in this context, is \*popular \* music: not as in lots of people like it, but as in it comes from the people. From outside of musical academia. Folk music, rock music, “ethnic” music, etc. > > There are huge overlaps of course, although mostly one-way: many members of the academy “break free” and become creators of “popular” music. There is much less clear a distinction, IMHO, than within the visual arts, where “outsider” art is far more distinct and distinctly different. So if I, who have never received any formal musical training, compose a fugue, it’s popular music, but if a guy with a PhD in musicology composes the same fugue, it’s art music? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/22 "2004-06-28T21:34:13Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > But to say it ‘stands on its own’ on purely musical terms eliminates opera, ballet, multimedia collaborations, incidental music for plays,… . . . which is why you have to insert the phrase “on purely musical terms” in order to have something to argue with. I’m puzzled by your antagonism here, GMan. It seems that between the two of us, you and I are able to contribute something of some substance to this thread. Triangulated by our respectively distinct approaches to the same subject. Why so much energy arguing rather than enhancing and clarifying? Nothing either you or I have said is _wrong_; just indicative of two different sensibilities. Why so eager to derail this into a nitpicky “I’m wrong and you’re right” time waster? > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Which causes problems with the ‘art music’ of composers who have not come through the traditional routes of musical education. Hmm. Pretty sure I began the whole discussion with a reference to the gray areas involved. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/23 "2004-06-28T21:37:22Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > So if I, who have never received any formal musical training, compose a fugue, it’s popular music, but if a guy with a PhD in musicology composes the same fugue, it’s art music? It’s whatever you want to call it. Which doesn’t negate the generalized definition that I supplied as an answer to a specific question. Are you suggesting that the question has no answer? Or just finding a snarky way to inform us all that (gasp!) many rules have exceptions? Or are you just addressing the gray areas that I’ve already mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/24 "2004-06-28T21:40:56Z")
In the first place. In the second place, “fugue” has a very specific meaning. If it’s truly a fugue, then it’s \*not \* outside of formal music tradition. If it’s a “self-taught” little piece that you just decide to call a fugue because you like the way that word sounds, then, again, you can certainly call it whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/25 "2004-06-28T21:44:05Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > It’s whatever you want to call it. Which doesn’t negate the generalized definition that I supplied as an answer to a specific question. Are you suggesting that the question has no answer? Or just finding a snarky way to inform us all that (gasp!) many rules have exceptions? > > Or are you just addressing the gray areas that I’ve already mentioned? I’m trying to discover whether your distinction is something that I can pick up on just by listening to a piece. If not, I’m not terribly interested in it. > [@](#): > > In the second place, “fugue” has a very specific meaning. If it’s truly a fugue, then it’s not outside of formal music tradition. OK, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that one could not compose art music without a formal education in music (i.e., only those with degrees can do it). My misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/26 "2004-06-28T21:46:23Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I’m puzzled by your antagonism here, GMan. It seems that between the two of us, you and I are able to contribute something of some substance to this thread. Triangulated by our respectively distinct approaches to the same subject. Why so much energy arguing rather than enhancing and clarifying? Nothing either you or I have said is _wrong_; just indicative of two different sensibilities. Why so eager to derail this into a nitpicky “I’m wrong and you’re right” time waster? I’m not intentionally nitpicking - I guess I’m just finding it easier to point out the pitfalls than give definite answers 😉 …_must try harder_ ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/27 "2004-06-28T21:48:14Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’m not intentionally nitpicking - I guess I’m just finding it easier to point out the pitfalls than give definite answers . . . DEFINITIVE ANSWERS? COUNT THE FUCKING QUOTATION MARKS, "IMHO"S, AND REFERENCES TO GRAY AREAS. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/28 "2004-06-28T21:51:55Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > DEFINITIVE ANSWERS? COUNT THE FUCKING QUOTATION MARKS, "IMHO"S, AND REFERENCES TO GRAY AREAS. And also count the direct statements. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/29 "2004-06-28T21:54:17Z")
Show me one. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/30 "2004-06-28T21:58:19Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > I’m trying to discover whether your distinction is something that I can pick up on just by listening to a piece. If not, I’m not terribly interested in it. No, I don’t think it’s something that you could necessarily discern by ear. The broad usage of “classical music” or “art music” or “non-vernacular music” etc etc. doesn’t really refer to style so much as it refers to a tradition. You’re free to do pretty much whatever you want and still be a “classical” composer- so style doesn’t really enter into it. Now, there _are_ different styles within the classical music tradition- for instance, Corigliano is often associated with neo-Romanticism . That may still be an imprecise and debatable term, but it at least narrows the field some and helps you find other composers who share a similar aesthetic. [aside]I once had a composition professor who wrote an electronic piece that used a bunch of cheesy MIDI samples and parodied country music- classical music is a completely open “genre” to say the least[/aside] ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/31 "2004-06-28T22:02:36Z")
> [@Israfel](#): > > No, I don’t think it’s something that you could necessarily discern by ear. The broad usage of “classical music” or “art music” or “non-vernacular music” etc etc. doesn’t really refer to style so much as it refers to a tradition. You’re free to do pretty much whatever you want and still be a “classical” composer- so style doesn’t really enter into it. Now, there _are_ different styles within the classical music tradition- for instance, Corigliano is often associated with neo-Romanticism . That may still be an imprecise and debatable term, but it at least narrows the field some and helps you find other composers who share a similar aesthetic. > > [aside]I once had a composition professor who wrote an electronic piece that used a bunch of cheesy MIDI samples and parodied country music- classical music is a completely open “genre” to say the least[/aside] If that’s the case, then how do you argue that someone (say, a pop singer who writes her own music & lyrics) is not a classical composer? And if there’s no means to determine what’s not “classical”, is it a useful term? I think that most people mean “orchestral” when they say “classical”, which is still pretty wide open as far as style goes, but it’s clear that some music is not orchestral. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/32 "2004-06-28T22:08:23Z")
I put classical in quotes to refer what is considered, well, classical music - Beethoven, Mozart, etc. As for the majority of 20th century music (rock, country, jazz, etc), who’s to say what will be considred “classical” in a couple hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/33 "2004-06-28T22:13:00Z")
Look, GMan, you seem to be all snappish because, in a discussion of things which are awash in gray areas and unnaildownable (to spew some messy metaphors), I colored the discussion–in the absence of hard-fast facts–with some of my own opinions. I’m sorry if–in the absence of hard-fast facts–you interpreted some of my opinions as stated facts. The fact is, though, that I tried mightily to remain extremely clear that what we were discussing is ruled largely by opinion. My posts might be sprinkled here and there with a phrase into which I did NOT wedge a clumsy and gratuitous “IMHO,” but it’s sprinkled liberally enough with such qualifications that one would assume it should be mighty clear to the discerning reader that I was, in fact, aware, that I was treading opiniony waters. Forgive whatever feathers I ruffled (_Philip Glass fan are we–_), but to read my posts as anything other than carefully qualified discussions of opinion is lazy or, perhaps, disingenuous (_–or maybe John Williams?_). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/34 "2004-06-28T22:15:08Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > If that’s the case, then how do you argue that someone (say, a pop singer who writes her own music & lyrics) is not a classical composer? And if there’s no means to determine what’s not “classical”, is it a useful term? > > I think that most people mean “orchestral” when they say “classical”, which is still pretty wide open as far as style goes, but it’s clear that some music is not orchestral. –which is why I, personally, have tried to refrain from using such words as “classical,” and have tried to define as clearly as possible the terms that I \*AM \* using. So no, \*classical \* is not a very useful term, in this context. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/35 "2004-06-28T22:31:00Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > …but to read my posts as anything other than carefully qualified discussions of opinion is lazy or, perhaps, disingenuous (_–or maybe John Williams?_). I wasn’t trying to read them any other way. My comments are euqally simply opinions. I guess the reason I got wound up is that, of all the terms available, I actually find ‘classical’ the least objectionable. But that’s beside the point. Most such music being written nowadays is _not_ orchestral, with two main reasons. One being that the orchestra as an ensemble carries baggage for any composer tackling it nowadays - rather the same as few modern artists use oils on canvas. The major consideration, however, is financial - commissioning a composition for a 70-piece orchestra is obviously more expensive than for a 15-piece chamber ensemble. And the ensembles that concentrate on contemporary music tend to be small groups, partly as a result of these same financial pressures. > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, then how do you argue that someone (say, a pop singer who writes her own music & lyrics) is not a classical composer? And if there’s no means to determine what’s not “classical”, is it a useful term? My very woolly attempt at defining ‘classical’ is that it is anything that works or is produced broadly within the western classical tradition. It doesn’t mean that _all_ the characteristics of that tradition must be present. And no, there’s no clear delimination. > [@](#): > > As for the majority of 20th century music (rock, country, jazz, etc), who’s to say what will be considred “classical” in a couple hundred years? I certainly hope that, once the passage of time has sorted the wheat from the chaff, the prime examples from these and other genres will be judged and remembered on their own merits. I don’t see how it’s necessary to ‘absorb’ them into the classical canon for them to recieve lasting recognition. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/36 "2004-06-28T22:35:06Z")
Cantata for Moderator: **lissener** and **GorillaMan** – in the tradition of 19th Century comic opera, I hereby throw a bucket of cold water on both of you, in A-flat. Sheeeeesh. This is Cafe Society. We’re discussing classical music. You have such a discussion sipping tea (or perhaps sherry), elegantly, with style. Play nice, here, dammit, or don’t play. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/37 "2004-06-28T23:05:28Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > . . . I guess the reason I got wound up is that, of all the terms available, I actually find ‘classical’ the least objectionable. . . . But it’s a word, especially in the context of this thread, that’s open to interpretation and clarification. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/38 "2004-06-28T23:14:31Z")
Fer cryin’… Call it “boring, old-fashioned, tedious out-of-date, long-haired” (BOFTODLH\*) then. You’re telling me you got your nose all out of joint over word choice? I expect better of a classicist. - This is a joke. I explain for the humor-impaired, since I personally am a big fan of classical music, I rarely listen to anything written after about 1927, and I would make the argument that classical music has largely evolved into movie music… in much the same way that other forms of classical music evolved from prior forms. The symphony, obviously, died with Beethoven – a contemporary review of the 9th proclaimed that, if Beethoven couldn’t write a symphony but had to put in a choral movement, then the symphony format was dead. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/39 "2004-06-28T23:22:00Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > - This is a joke. I explain for the humor-impaired, since I personally am a big fan of classical music, I rarely listen to anything written after about 1927, and I would make the argument that classical music has largely evolved into movie music… One fairly small branch, particularly in America, did evolve into film music. There’s been a myriad of other directions, too. > [@](#): > > The symphony, obviously, died with Beethoven. We know you’re winding us up there: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4918328&postcount=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4918328&postcount=2) Oh, and why 1927? (if you weren’t picking a random number, that is…) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483/40 "2004-06-28T23:32:48Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Fer cryin’… > > Call it “boring, old-fashioned, tedious out-of-date, long-haired” (BOFTODLH\*) then. You’re telling me you got your nose all out of joint over word choice? > > I expect better of a classicist. FWIW, CK, no one was out of joint over wordchoice: the discussion was going along just fine, discussion and clarification of terms included, until the tone went negative. “Classical” has such specific connotations that when it’s adopted as a general term it’s vague and meaningless. When I first read the OP, I wasn’t sure if the question was “is there music being written in the _style_ of Beethoven and Brahms?” or “is there instrumental music–of any style–being written for orchestras/quartets/whatever?” These two questions have two different answers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-current-status-of-classical-music/252483.md?page=3)