# What's the dark underside of our society? Your theories. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384 "2011-07-09T03:51:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/41 "2011-07-28T19:27:13Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > I for one distrust ‘‘education’’. Or at least as it now exists. True education died in the 60’s replaced by liberal indoctrination. > [@thelabdude](#): > > In the 50’s science was taught as a method. Now it is one more body of facts to be changed to fit agendas. Which party does that again? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/42 "2011-07-28T19:32:38Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > I for one distrust ‘‘education’’. Or at least as it now exists. True education died in the 60’s replaced by liberal indoctrination. That’s exactly the sort of comment that terrifies me. > [@thelabdude](#): > > Everybody has heard the joke about the guy asking everybody on the project what 2+2 is and getting a variation on 4 from everybody but the lawyer. Now nobody feels bound by 4 and wants to know what is in it for them to make it something else. Not heard it, but it sounds like it is nice to lawyers, which is a rarity. > [@thelabdude](#): > > In the 50’s science was taught as a method. Now it is one more body of facts to be changed to fit agendas. Wasn’t taught that way in my science classes in the 1970s and 1980s. Nor in my colleagues classes at university in the 1980s and 1990s. Nor in my son’s current science classes in the 2010s. ]I guess it is possible it all went to hell in the 2000s, and was restored by the time he started science class, but I doubt it somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/43 "2011-07-28T19:58:35Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > _(Yet families regularly starve through the last week of the month.)_ > > As someone living on food stamps, there is no good reason for this at all. It comes from people spending their money on soda and TV dinners at the beginning of the month, instead of taking my model and getting a 20lb sack of potatoes. Some people I know just can’t get it through their heads that they can’t eat like they have a job if they don’t actually have a job. In three states I’ve lived in, and even for some time on the street, the only people I’ve seen literally starving are those who make the **choice** to. Sone people don’t get food stamps. They have to make due with, ya know, cash. A very specific, limited amount of cash (which is _just_ enough to keep them from being eligible for food stamps), which they also have to use to pay their bills. Plenty of those people starve the last week of the month, because your landlord and the gas company doesn’t really give a shit how sick you are of potatoes, they want their money. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/44 "2011-07-28T20:09:06Z")
Not heard it, but it sounds like it is nice to lawyers, which is a rarity. [/QUOTE] No such luck - in the version I heard the lawyer (sometimes an accountant) closes all the doors and windows and whispers: “What do you want it to be?”. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/45 "2011-07-28T20:15:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Obviously it is not an exact parallel and not meant to be. The point remains, we are what happens if the bad guys win: life goes on, everyone forgets, and it becomes at best a single unit in elementry school history. I think I remember a little side bar about the trail of tears in fifth grade. > > The fundamental underpinning of our nation, the land we build our great cities, our schools full of blonde girls in pigtails, our legendary highways and car culture, our malls and fields and hamburger stands, is based on a very sad story of death, theft and the end of peoples. Without the deaths of millions, without theft on a scale barely imaginable, America would not exist. This is our original sin. This is the dark side of our birth. > > This isn’t a liberal guilt thing. It’s not about assigning blame or feeling bad or any kind of politics. It is not saying anything could have or should have been different. > > But it is easy to forget. English is a foreign language on our land. We are cousins to the Boers, but we saw the mission to the end where they failed. We are the rarely seen result of a completed colonialism. This is our story, our very first story. This is true of a lot (okay probably most) of countries, cultures, and civilizations. We are using an alphabet devised in the Latin peninsula to communicate in a language whose mother tongue came from the Caucuaus mountains. Why? Because Indo-European speaking tribes wiped out or colonized everybody, but the Basque speakers in Europe. Heck, technically English is a foreign language in England. It comes from the Angles, Saxons, & Jutes who invade after the Roman Empire fell. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/46 "2011-07-28T20:18:46Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Not heard it, but it sounds like it is nice to lawyers, which is a rarity. No, in that joke, the lawyer, asked, “How much is 2 + 2?”, answers, “How much do you want it to be?” I’ve heard the exact same joke with an accountant substituted. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/47 "2011-07-28T20:44:40Z")
Lawyers and bankers. :smack: usually the greatest evil isn’t something you have to look for, since it comes and finds you. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/48 "2011-07-29T01:51:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, in that joke, the lawyer, asked, “How much is 2 + 2?”, answers, “How much do you want it to be?” > > I’ve heard the exact same joke with an accountant substituted. Maybe the post Enron version? My point is the total sacrifice of objectivity to agendas. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/49 "2011-07-29T02:52:10Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > The dark underside that will bring the United States (and probably a few other countries) down is _lack of long-term planning_. Everything is instant, do it now, look at the next quarter. As a result, most plans with better results that take longer to get going are passed over in favour of quickie plans with worse results. This is as close to the “fundamental problem” as I think you can get. In fact, what long-term planning there is today is usually based on poor or wrong ideas and is really a pretext for helping the proposer achieve his own personal short-term goals. For example, the new efficiency standards for light bulbs got passed not because anyone really gives a crap about conserving energy, but because GE wanted to sell a lot of high-profit newfangled light bulbs. Any plan with a time horizon of shorter than a year is not much of a plan at all, but any plan with a time horizon of 100 years is also useless because there is no known way to predict the consequences of our actions 100 years out. Can’t we agree to something like a 10-15 year planning horizon for things like the federal budget? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/50 "2011-07-29T02:56:20Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Maybe the post Enron version? > > My point is the total sacrifice of objectivity to agendas. This is another aspect of the shortsightedness identified above. Most people are smart enough to realize that the claims made in commercials are for the short-term benefit of the advertiser, not the long-term benefit of the viewer. What people are slow to get is that everything is a commercial now. A company would say 2+2=5 if it meant one percent more profit next quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/51 "2011-07-29T05:18:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This is true of a lot (okay probably most) of countries, cultures, and civilizations. We are using an alphabet devised in the Latin peninsula to communicate in a language whose mother tongue came from the Caucuaus mountains. Why? Because Indo-European speaking tribes wiped out or colonized everybody, but the Basque speakers in Europe. Heck, technically English is a foreign language in England. It comes from the Angles, Saxons, & Jutes who invade after the Roman Empire fell. Yeah, but time absolves responsibility. Genghis Khan killed far more people than Hitler yet is it illegal to praise him in Mongolia? At 240 years, The United States is still a baby. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/52 "2011-07-29T08:06:48Z")
The anti-sustainability, anti-environment crowd scare me. And they even call themselves “conservatives.” Makes me think the devil does exist… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/53 "2011-07-29T19:12:44Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I think the question of whether a woman is legally able to choose to have an abortion is pretty well settled at this point. There’s no chance it will be taken away in the United States. But would you deny that there’s a [dark side to that](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion)? If you want to see the real underside, you would have had to have been around when abortion was illegal. Girls still got pregnant. That has not changed. But if a girl got pregnant, you had to get a back alley abortion. It was Kafkaesque . Go down the alley, meet a person who would take you to the “doctor”. Then go to a location you are terrified to be in. Hand them 400 bucks and you leave the room. She goes in behind a curtain and some likely unqualified person would perform some action to end the pregnancy. It could be coat hangar. It could be anything, because you had to trust that they knew what they were doing. Some young girls died. Some were taken to hospitals to be saved. Some were never able to get pregnant again. It was a horrible demeaning event. if abortion was outlawed, that is what would happen again. Girls whose parents had money, would go abroad and nothing was said. Some got aborted in hospitals, because some doctors still performed abortions if they knew you. As always, high sounding laws come down hard on the poor. The rich don’t have to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/54 "2011-07-29T19:59:56Z")
> [@Bosstrain](#): > > Lawyers and bankers. :smack: usually the greatest evil isn’t something you have to look for, since it comes and finds you. And the IRS. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/55 "2011-07-29T20:54:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > . . . Some were taken to hospitals to be saved. . . And went from there to prison . . . while the men who impregnated them were free to go find their next victims . . . ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/56 "2011-07-31T03:31:01Z")
[Whistleblower tells of America's hidden nightmare for its sick poor | US news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/26/us-healthcare-obama-barack-change) Here is a story about the poor in America and the health care the do not get. Many think the poor just go to an emergency room and get free health care. it is wrong. Many Americans go without health care of any kind. It is a horror for America. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/57 "2011-07-31T16:06:48Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > And the IRS. 😛 Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot the biggest one 😉 ! Thanks for keeping it all straight in my head. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384/58 "2011-07-31T17:10:57Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > And went from there to prison . . . while the men who impregnated them were free to go find their next victims . . . “Victims,” huh? :dubious: Do you think you’re showing just a smidgen of your own bias shared by the era you’re criticizing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dark-underside-of-our-society-your-theories/588384.md?page=2)