# What's the deal with Alice in Wonderland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062 "2004-07-14T13:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/21 "2004-07-15T05:28:43Z")
**FisherQueen** : excellent analysis. I would add that, when you’re a kid, you keep changing size, and it seems like you’re too small for things or too big for things frustratingly often. **lambchops** , you’re essentially correct: _Alice in Wonderland_ started as a made-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment tale that Carroll told Alice and her sisters. At her request, he later wrote it down (as _Alice’s Adventures Underground_ or something like that), and this was later reworked & added to and published as _Alice’s Adventures In Wonderland_. It’s also worth noting that Lewis Carroll had the mind of a parodist—most of the poems in _Alice_ are parodies of other poems that were popular in their day—and the whole book could be seen as something of a parody of or takeoff on the moralistic children’s stories that were around then. And a lot of what’s in _Alice_ is there **because it’s funny**. As with animated cartoons (that also have their own peculiar logic), things get thrown in just to get a laugh. And yes, Carroll was a mathematician/logician, and the twisted logic and the sense of humor and way of looking at things typical of mathematicians definitely comes through in _Alice_. (There seems to be a rule that every math book, text or popular, must contain at least one quote or reference to _Alice_.) ---
**Author:** ![acrossthesea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@acrossthesea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acrossthesea)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/22 "2004-07-15T06:01:12Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > On a tangent, has anyone else played American McGee’s Alice? Good game. Good plot. Love the voice of the Cheshire cat, and the animation on him. I have. I liked that game a lot, though I thought it was disappointingly short. ---
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/23 "2004-07-15T10:25:31Z")
Aha.That was because you drank the potion that made you so big.Drink the SHRINK ME and you’ll be well away! ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/24 "2004-07-15T23:14:44Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Don’t remember her full name, but one of the nonsense poems he wrote in one of the books spells her full name with the first letter of each line. The lovely closing lines of the _Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland_ sequel _Through the Looking Glass_: ``` A boat beneath a sunny sky, Lingering onward dreamily In an evening of July — Children three that nestle near, Eager eye and willing ear, Pleased a simple tale to hear — Long had paled that sunny sky: Echoes fade and memories die. Autumn frosts have slain July. Still she haunts me, phantomwise, Alice moving under skies Never seen by waking eyes. Children yet, the tale to hear, Eager eye and willing ear, Lovingly shall nestle near. In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die: Ever drifting down the stream — Lingering in the golden gleam — Life, what is it but a dream? ``` ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/25 "2004-07-15T23:35:18Z")
Of course, it’s details like that that make the subject of [this recent story](http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/story.jsp?story=537925) bonkers. > [@](#): > > In the book, for release in Britain in September, Beddor turns the children’s classic on its head, claiming it was never a story devised by the Reverend Charles Dodgson for his charming young friend, Alice Liddell. Mr Beddor said: “After a stunning discovery and exhaustive research, I have unmasked what I believe is the ultimate literary lie, a twisted fabrication that has existed for nearly 150 years. Lewis Carroll did not tell Alice Liddell the story of Wonderland, she told him. And Alice Liddell was not who she appeared to be.” > Beddor, a 35-year-old former ski champion, stunt double and actorr, claimed Alice in Wonderland was really Alyss Heart, an orphan whose story is much nastier than the sanitised version Mr Dodgson published in 1864 under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll. Beddor even basically admits to wandering into a subject on which he’s totally ignorant. > [@](#): > > Beddor said: “I guess I didn’t realise how beloved Lewis Carroll’s classic was. I was just seeking revenge. My grandmother and my mother made me read this book when I was 10 or 11 and I thought it was a terrible girls’ book. This is my revenge; I wanted to rewrite it as a book boys would also enjoy.” ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/26 "2004-07-16T00:07:56Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Of course, it’s details like that that make the subject of [this recent story](http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/story.jsp?story=537925) bonkers. OK, on the one hand, he doesn’t seem, to me, to be claiming he’s giving the true story of how Alice came to be, but that that’s the conceit behind his novel. On the other hand, he does seem to be an ass, and is certainly painfully ignorant when he says ‘I didn’t realise how popular AiWL was’. On the third hand, it actually looks fairly interesting. I love things like this. Unlike Beddor, things like this appeal to me not because I think the originals are ‘terrible’, but because I LOVE them. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/27 "2004-07-16T00:54:16Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The lovely closing lines of the _Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland_ sequel _Through the Looking Glass_: > > ``` > A boat beneath a sunny sky, > Lingering onward dreamily > In an evening of July — > > Children three that nestle near, > Eager eye and willing ear, > Pleased a simple tale to hear — > > Long had paled that sunny sky: > Echoes fade and memories die. > Autumn frosts have slain July. > > Still she haunts me, phantomwise, > Alice moving under skies > Never seen by waking eyes. > > Children yet, the tale to hear, > Eager eye and willing ear, > Lovingly shall nestle near. > > In a Wonderland they lie, > Dreaming as the days go by, > Dreaming as the summers die: > > Ever drifting down the stream — > Lingering in the golden gleam — > Life, what is it but a dream? > > ``` And, while we’re at it, the lovely closing lines from the first book… one of my favorite passages from all of literature: (copied from Project Gutenberg) > [@](#): > > Wake up, Alice dear!’ said her sister; `Why, what a long sleep you’ve had!’ > > `Oh, I've had such a curious dream!' said Alice, and she told her sister, as well as she could remember them, all these strange Adventures of hers that you have just been reading about; and when she had finished, her sister kissed her, and said, `It was a curious dream, dear, certainly: but now run in to your tea; it’s getting late.’ So Alice got up and ran off, thinking while she ran, as well she might, what a wonderful dream it had been. > > But her sister sat still just as she left her, leaning her head on her hand, watching the setting sun, and thinking of little Alice and all her wonderful Adventures, till she too began dreaming after a fashion, and this was her dream:– > > First, she dreamed of little Alice herself, and once again the tiny hands were clasped upon her knee, and the bright eager eyes were looking up into hers–she could hear the very tones of her voice, and see that queer little toss of her head to keep back the wandering hair that would always get into her eyes–and still as she listened, or seemed to listen, the whole place around her became alive the strange creatures of her little sister’s dream. > > The long grass rustled at her feet as the White Rabbit hurried by–the frightened Mouse splashed his way through the neighbouring pool–she could hear the rattle of the teacups as the March Hare and his friends shared their never-ending meal, and the shrill voice of the Queen ordering off her unfortunate guests to execution–once more the pig-baby was sneezing on the Duchess’s knee, while plates and dishes crashed around it–once more the shriek of the Gryphon, the squeaking of the Lizard’s slate-pencil, and the choking of the suppressed guinea-pigs, filled the air, mixed up with the distant sobs of the miserable Mock Turtle. > > So she sat on, with closed eyes, and half believed herself in Wonderland, though she knew she had but to open them again, and all would change to dull reality–the grass would be only rustling in the wind, and the pool rippling to the waving of the reeds–the rattling teacups would change to tinkling sheep-bells, and the Queen’s shrill cries to the voice of the shepherd boy–and the sneeze of the baby, the shriek of the Gryphon, and all thy other queer noises, would change (she knew) to the confused clamour of the busy farm-yard–while the lowing of the cattle in the distance would take the place of the Mock Turtle’s heavy sobs. > > Lastly, she pictured to herself how this same little sister of hers would, in the after-time, be herself a grown woman; and how she would keep, through all her riper years, the simple and loving heart of her childhood: and how she would gather about her other little children, and make their eyes bright and eager with many a strange tale, perhaps even with the dream of Wonderland of long ago: and how she would feel with all their simple sorrows, and find a pleasure in all their simple joys, remembering her own child-life, and the happy summer days. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/28 "2004-07-16T03:28:50Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > Recreational drug users always seem to have a lot of trouble accepting that people can write incredibly strange stuff without using drugs at all. Read a biography of Lewis Carroll and Alice in Wonderland makes perfect sense. He was undoubtedly a bizarre guy, but an opium or absinthe user? Hallucinogens? Uh, no. Note that the argument doesn’t require that Lewis Carroll had to use the drugs himself. He could have read about them, and/or spoken with users of them. And incorporated this into his writings. He was writing about “Wonderland”, a bizarre place where the logic of this world does not apply. And, Alice eats mushrooms that cause bizarre things to happen, drinks a potion that makes her small, eats a cake that makes her large. Psychedelics when ingested cause bizarre changes in perception and reasoning. That sure seems like it could be based on accounts from users of drugs. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/29 "2004-07-16T03:47:03Z")
I dunno. I have plenty of weird dreams that could out-Alice Alice, and I don’t take any drugs. (I’m my own mind-altering substance. :D) ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/30 "2004-07-16T13:03:40Z")
Feed your head, man. Feed your head. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/31 "2004-07-16T13:28:16Z")
Note that the initial letters of the 21 line poem above spell out "ALICE PLEASANCE LIDDELL. Alice’s full name. The initial “Alice’s Adventures Underground” was a story Charles Dodsen told to 6 year old Alice during a July day they spent together, making it up as the day went. He later wrote it down, added pictures, and gave it to her for Christmas. The tale was expanded and printed as “Alice in Wonderland.” While Dodsen might have had romantic feelings towards Alice and the other young girls he made friends with, there is no evidence he ever acted on them. When the girls grew up, he lost interest and let them go. Dodsen appeared to recognize that while he couldn’t help having such feelings, acting on them would be dangerous for the girls and his own reputation. He did photograph and draw nude girls, but only with their mother’s permission, making sure that mother was in the room with them, and giving up the idea if the girl should any reluctance. As an aside, Alice had a romance with Prince Leopold while they were at Oxford. The Prince had the royal hemophilia, and both Mrs. Liddell and Queen Victoria nixed the idea of his marrying anyone but a Princess. Leopold later married Princess Beatrice, and had one child named Alice. Alice Liddle married Reginald Hargraves, named her second son Leopold and her third son Carryl. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/32 "2004-07-16T13:54:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Just to calm you down and keep you from swearing off Sweet Tarts in case you don’t already know this; people put LSD on Sweet Tarts and then eat them _themselves_. They don’t drop it on them and then put them back on the shelf :). “Hmm…those Sweet Tarts were \*awfully \* good. I think I want more.” Thank you Cisco. I did kind of figure that, but it was something I’d never, ever heard of, so it surprised me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062/33 "2004-07-17T02:43:54Z")
Charles **Dodgson**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-alice-in-wonderland/255062.md?page=1)