What's the deal with Alice in Wonderland?

Cafe Society
21

FisherQueen: excellent analysis. I would add that, when you’re a kid, you keep changing size, and it seems like you’re too small for things or too big for things frustratingly often.

lambchops, you’re essentially correct: Alice in Wonderland started as a made-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment tale that Carroll told Alice and her sisters. At her request, he later wrote it down (as Alice’s Adventures Underground or something like that), and this was later reworked & added to and published as Alice’s Adventures In Wonderland.

It’s also worth noting that Lewis Carroll had the mind of a parodist—most of the poems in Alice are parodies of other poems that were popular in their day—and the whole book could be seen as something of a parody of or takeoff on the moralistic children’s stories that were around then. And a lot of what’s in Alice is there because it’s funny. As with animated cartoons (that also have their own peculiar logic), things get thrown in just to get a laugh.

And yes, Carroll was a mathematician/logician, and the twisted logic and the sense of humor and way of looking at things typical of mathematicians definitely comes through in Alice. (There seems to be a rule that every math book, text or popular, must contain at least one quote or reference to Alice.)

22

I have. I liked that game a lot, though I thought it was disappointingly short.

23

Aha.That was because you drank the potion that made you so big.Drink the SHRINK ME and you’ll be well away!

24

The lovely closing lines of the Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland sequel Through the Looking Glass:

                A boat beneath a sunny sky,
                Lingering onward dreamily
                In an evening of July —

                Children three that nestle near,
                Eager eye and willing ear,
                Pleased a simple tale to hear —

                Long had paled that sunny sky:
                Echoes fade and memories die.
                Autumn frosts have slain July.

                Still she haunts me, phantomwise,
                Alice moving under skies
                Never seen by waking eyes.

                Children yet, the tale to hear,
                Eager eye and willing ear,
                Lovingly shall nestle near.

                In a Wonderland they lie,
                Dreaming as the days go by,
                Dreaming as the summers die:

                Ever drifting down the stream —
                Lingering in the golden gleam —
                Life, what is it but a dream?
25

Of course, it’s details like that that make the subject of this recent story bonkers.

Beddor even basically admits to wandering into a subject on which he’s totally ignorant.

26

OK, on the one hand, he doesn’t seem, to me, to be claiming he’s giving the true story of how Alice came to be, but that that’s the conceit behind his novel.

On the other hand, he does seem to be an ass, and is certainly painfully ignorant when he says ‘I didn’t realise how popular AiWL was’.

On the third hand, it actually looks fairly interesting. I love things like this. Unlike Beddor, things like this appeal to me not because I think the originals are ‘terrible’, but because I LOVE them.

27

And, while we’re at it, the lovely closing lines from the first book… one of my favorite passages from all of literature: (copied from Project Gutenberg)

28

Note that the argument doesn’t require that Lewis Carroll had to use the drugs himself. He could have read about them, and/or spoken with users of them. And incorporated this into his writings. He was writing about “Wonderland”, a bizarre place where the logic of this world does not apply. And, Alice eats mushrooms that cause bizarre things to happen, drinks a potion that makes her small, eats a cake that makes her large. Psychedelics when ingested cause bizarre changes in perception and reasoning. That sure seems like it could be based on accounts from users of drugs.

29

I dunno. I have plenty of weird dreams that could out-Alice Alice, and I don’t take any drugs. (I’m my own mind-altering substance. :D)

30

Feed your head, man. Feed your head.

31

Note that the initial letters of the 21 line poem above spell out "ALICE PLEASANCE LIDDELL. Alice’s full name.

The initial “Alice’s Adventures Underground” was a story Charles Dodsen told to 6 year old Alice during a July day they spent together, making it up as the day went. He later wrote it down, added pictures, and gave it to her for Christmas. The tale was expanded and printed as “Alice in Wonderland.”

While Dodsen might have had romantic feelings towards Alice and the other young girls he made friends with, there is no evidence he ever acted on them. When the girls grew up, he lost interest and let them go. Dodsen appeared to recognize that while he couldn’t help having such feelings, acting on them would be dangerous for the girls and his own reputation. He did photograph and draw nude girls, but only with their mother’s permission, making sure that mother was in the room with them, and giving up the idea if the girl should any reluctance.

As an aside, Alice had a romance with Prince Leopold while they were at Oxford. The Prince had the royal hemophilia, and both Mrs. Liddell and Queen Victoria nixed the idea of his marrying anyone but a Princess. Leopold later married Princess Beatrice, and had one child named Alice. Alice Liddle married Reginald Hargraves, named her second son Leopold and her third son Carryl.

32

“Hmm…those Sweet Tarts were *awfully * good. I think I want more.”

Thank you Cisco. I did kind of figure that, but it was something I’d never, ever heard of, so it surprised me. :slight_smile:

33

Charles Dodgson.