# What's the deal with F and S in old manuscripts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764 "2011-03-23T21:32:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/1 "2011-03-23T21:32:37Z")
On old printed manuscripts the characters for F and for S are very similar, almost interchangeable on some. I remember that there is an explanation for this but I can’t remember what it is. Cecil did a column on this at some point IIRC but it’s difficult to look for since F and S are too short to use as search terms. Anyone know off hand? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/2 "2011-03-23T21:35:21Z")
The term you’re looking for is [long or medial s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s). ETA: [And here’s the column.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/101/why-did-18th-century-writers-use-f-inftead-of-s) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/3 "2011-03-23T21:43:27Z")
Thanks pulykamell! ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/4 "2011-03-23T23:08:42Z")
I mentally read text using the medial s with something approximating Sylvester’s speech impediment. Fthufferin’ fthuccotafth! ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/5 "2011-03-23T23:43:26Z")
Cecil says in the article “[T]he long/medial s was supposed to be used in the middle of a word, while the terminal s was used to finish one off. … The two versions were phonetically equivalent and derived from the same Roman letterform. Why folks figured they needed two varieties when they could have scraped by with one is beyond me …” Wouldn’t this have derived from the Greek sigma, which also has two forms. The terminal sigma looks kind of like our terminal s, and the medial/initial sigma has a “nubbin” like the long/medial s. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/6 "2011-03-23T23:45:36Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Fthufferin’ fthuccotafth! “The purfuit of happineff?” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/7 "2011-03-24T00:02:34Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > “The purfuit of happineff?” No, it would be “purſuit of happineſs”. “s” is used at the end of words. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/8 "2011-03-24T13:42:23Z")
The letters are different. When I took German, 1954-57, all our reading materials were in fraktur (the old type often mistakenly called Gothic) and I had to learn to read it. The medial s is not crossed like the f; otherwise the letter shapes were identical. Was it used in Latin? If so, then maybe they got it from Greek. If not, then it was probably their own invention. It is not uncommon for letters in other alphabets to have a distinct final form. Hebrew has several letters that do. I have read that in Arabic, letters can have up to four different forms: initial, medial, final, and stand-alone. Even we, when handwriting use different forms of letters depending on the context. The r in or is distinctly different from the one in ar. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/9 "2011-03-24T14:19:24Z")
Funfact: ſs = German ß (even though I learned it was called “ſz”).\* And while we’re on letter diverſity: aa gg Wouldn’t it be cool if we had the same rules for those? “Waitreſs! Someone is throwing the eggs onto the lava!” \*I love unicode ---
**Author:** ![Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romeo_and_Whatsherface)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/10 "2011-03-24T14:29:58Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > It is not uncommon for letters in other alphabets to have a distinct final form. . Why is this? Was the final form pronounced differently? Was it just to help distinguish the end of the word? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/11 "2011-03-24T15:56:28Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Was it used in Latin? If so, then maybe they got it from Greek. If not, then it was probably their own invention. The ancient Romans didn’t have minuscule letters. > [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > Why is this? Was the final form pronounced differently? Was it just to help distinguish the end of the word? Just curious. Remember that handwriting came first and the more people wrote, the more they tended to find variant forms that were easy to write as well as easy to read. They weren’t so interested in lock-step standardization. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/12 "2011-03-24T15:57:21Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > On old printed manuscripts … [nitpick] A manuscript is not printed. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/13 "2011-03-24T15:58:47Z")
> [@Romeo\_and\_Whatsherface](#): > > Why is this? Was the final form pronounced differently? Was it just to help distinguish the end of the word? Just curious. Quite possibly the latter. Many ancient languages didn’t put spaces or punctuation between words. (Some modern ones still don’t.) Having separate word-initial and word-final letterforms would overcome any resulting ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/14 "2011-03-24T19:54:27Z")
I have an old copy of Shakespeare’s plays and yep, he is “Shakfpeare” in that edition (the first “e” we expect was not used in this version’s spelling…) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/15 "2011-03-25T00:53:14Z")
The fact that the long f, barely crossed, often looks more like an l, caused me to misread an old gravestone once as ‘here lies Mary Jones. Her husband and four children are suffering great lols.’ Seemed a bit _too_ honest. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/16 "2011-03-25T04:18:13Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > No, it would be “purſuit of happineſs”. “s” is used at the end of words. Tsk tsk. You need a better grounding in the [classics](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUCe5OaKldM). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/17 "2011-03-25T04:29:20Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The ancient Romans didn’t have minuscule letters. True, although IIRC by late antiquity and the early Middle Ages, scribes and others writing in Latin did devise and use minuscules. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/18 "2011-03-25T04:35:07Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > No, it would be “purſuit of happineſs”. “s” is used at the end of words. Wasn’t “s” also used for the second of two ‘s’ type letters together, medially? So for example a court document might mention “witneſses”. Or am I confusing this with German Fraktur usage? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/19 "2011-03-25T04:43:08Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I mentally read text using the medial s with something approximating Sylvester’s speech impediment. Am I a bad person for having expected a Rocky quote? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-f-and-s-in-old-manuscripts/575764/20 "2011-03-25T10:32:32Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Wasn’t “s” also used for the second of two ‘s’ type letters together, medially? So for example a court document might mention “witneſses”. Or am I confusing this with German Fraktur usage? There is some inconsistency, but the general rule is that medially you’d use a double long s.