# What's the deal with Feminists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513 "2014-08-14T13:34:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/1 "2014-08-14T13:34:34Z")
I often wonder if I’m a “Feminist” or not. I believe in equality. I want women to get paid as much as men. I believe in reproductive rights. I’ve had female bosses that were some of the best leaders I’ve ever had the pleasure of working for. But now I’m hearing some “crazy” things that certain feminists are saying. Mostly having to do with “rape”. I don’t really know much about it, but it’s disturbing from what I have heard… I don’t really understand what “rape culture” is. Could someone explain it to me? Then I hear of other feminists who are against what these people are saying about “rape”. I know feminists that are just as concerned about male issues, as well as female. Some feminists think that working at Hooter’s or strip clubs is empowering, some think it’s demeaning. So, does the label “Feminist” mean anything anymore? I’ve heard people say they are “anti-feminist”… that confuses me as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/2 "2014-08-14T13:47:21Z")
I think “feminist” still just means one believes women should have all the same rights as men, and that women should be treated equally to men. Here’s my understanding of rape culture: Rape culture is a culture in which rape is, at least to some degree, normalized and/or trivialized. Because of “rape culture”, victims of rape are often blamed, or their rape is triviliazed, or their rape is denied, they are objectified, etc. Women are lectured on how to avoid rape – as if it’s a woman’s responsibility to not be raped – and it is implied that women who are raped have failed in some way. Rape is often trivialized, or even denied outright, if it is not late-night-violent-stranger rape – for example, if a woman was intoxicated, or at a party, or was in a man’s apartment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/3 "2014-08-14T13:50:58Z")
In “rape culture”, rape is just sort of accepted to some degree as a ‘boys will be boys’ kind of thing. Further, non-penetrative sexual assaults are trivialized or denied as well. If a woman is groped at a dance club, for example, this might just be laughed off, and the groper would face no consequences. If a female victim of groping complains to the police, she may face attempts at shaming and other consequences from her social group, and she may be pressured to just forget about the incident to “protect” the groper, who was just acting how all boys do, and after all, he was a little drunk (for example). ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/4 "2014-08-14T13:54:13Z")
You mean there’s not one fixed definition of “feminist,” like there is for “liberal,” “conservative,” “fat,” “intelligent” and “simple”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/5 "2014-08-14T13:58:40Z")
Here’s an example of a kind of thing that might be said in a rape culture, and partially/mostly accepted (not immediately refuted by the speaker’s peers): “If you didn’t want to be groped, you shouldn’t have been dancing so suggestively, and you shouldn’t have been dancing so close to him!” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/6 "2014-08-14T14:02:10Z")
I remember a time when no woman could get a mortgage without a male co-signer. There were tales of successful, high earning woman bringing in senile fathers from nursing homes to co-sign! Rape was trivialized–What were you doing walking alone at night? Why were you wearing those tight jeans? Haven’t you had sex before? If the suspected rapist had ten prior accusations of rape, that couldn’t be brought into the courtroom. If the woman wasn’t a virgin, her entire sexual past could be brought in. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/7 "2014-08-14T14:02:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > You mean there’s not one fixed definition of “feminist,” like there is for “liberal,” “conservative,” “fat,” “intelligent” and “simple”? There are just so many variations that it all seems muddled to me. I’m not trying to be offensive… I would like to know what it is to be a “feminist”, I think **iiandyiiii** summed it up nicely. I put this in GD because of what different opinions might be expressed. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/8 "2014-08-14T14:05:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here’s an example of a kind of thing that might be said in a rape culture, and partially/mostly accepted (not immediately refuted by the speaker’s peers): > > “If you didn’t want to be groped, you shouldn’t have been dancing so suggestively, and you shouldn’t have been dancing so close to him!” But I know a lot of women who expect men to make the first move… It’s really weird saying; “Is it OK to do ‘this’?”, “May I touch you ‘here’?” ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/9 "2014-08-14T14:06:09Z")
Isn’t the word “feminist” itself inherently sexist? Shouldn’t we be “equalists”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/10 "2014-08-14T14:08:42Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > But I know a lot of women who expect men to make the first move… It’s really weird saying; “Is it OK to do ‘this’?”, “May I touch you ‘here’?” It’s very possible to “make a move” without groping. And whether it’s “weird” or not, it’s perfectly reasonable to talk with a date/partner/acquaintance about what activities are expected/hoped-for/appropriate. Maybe it’s not necessary in all cases, but if there’s any doubt at all, it’s far better to ask. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/11 "2014-08-14T14:11:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s very possible to “make a move” without groping. And whether it’s “weird” or not, it’s perfectly reasonable to talk with a date/partner/acquaintance about what activities are expected/hoped-for/appropriate. Maybe it’s not necessary in all cases, but if there’s any doubt at all, it’s far better to ask. I’ve had 2 women tell me that the fact that I asked about stuff like that is a turn-off. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just telling you what women have honestly said to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/12 "2014-08-14T14:11:37Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > Isn’t the word “feminist” itself inherently sexist? Shouldn’t we be “equalists”? I don’t think so, any more than the phrase “homosexual rights”, or “minority rights”, or “immigrant rights”, is inherently discriminatory. It’s perfectly reasonable to acknowledge that, historically speaking, discrimination (in various forms) has been mostly one-sided. If, historically, men were oppressed, violated, and exploited by women to the degree that women were oppressed, violated, and exploited by men then it would be reasonable to use a term like “masculists”, or something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/13 "2014-08-14T14:13:48Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’ve had 2 women tell me that the fact that I ask about stuff like that is a turn-off. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just telling you what women have honestly said to me. That’s okay. Individual women might react differently. I know that I’ve behaved in many ways that are “turn-offs” to my wife, at times, but our relationship has survived. So if a woman tells you it’s a turn-off, then ask her honestly what she thinks the best way to go about it is. Maybe you just take things very slow. If she shakes her head, laughs, and leaves, just because you asked, then you probably are better off not spending any more time with her anyway. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/14 "2014-08-14T14:18:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s okay. Individual women might react differently. I know that I’ve behaved in many ways that are “turn-offs” to my wife, at times, but our relationship has survived. > > So if a woman tells you it’s a turn-off, then ask her honestly what she thinks the best way to go about it is. Maybe you just take things very slow. If she shakes her head, laughs, and leaves, just because you asked, then you probably are better off not spending any more time with her anyway. Umm… It’s not okay to me. I’m very inexperienced when it comes to sex and sexual situations… This does not help. I don’t know what to think. To ask sounds like a turn off. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/15 "2014-08-14T14:19:17Z")
Feminism is not merely the belief that women should have the same rights as men and should be treated equally. Feminism is the belief that those things should be so, _combined_ with the political analysis that says that historically they _have not been so_, that currently as of yet _they are not so_ (although because feminism has been an effective social force of change, an observable amount of progress has been made). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/16 "2014-08-14T14:22:17Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Umm… It’s not okay to me. I’m very inexperienced when it comes to sex and sexual situations… This does not help. I don’t know what to think. > . > To ask sounds like a turn of. It may be a turn-off to some, but it won’t be for all. Even when it’s a turn-off, in most cases you will probably learn something that will be helpful to you in the future. And for some women, it will even be a turn-on to have such a discussion before any intimacy. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/17 "2014-08-14T14:29:54Z")
I guess better safe than sorry… but I can tell you that more aggressive men seem to be doing better than I am with sex. I don’t think it’s fair to have men worry SO much about crossing a line that seems to be drawn in different places for different people. I’ve been touched by women that I didn’t want to be touching me… I didn’t tell them they were a “rape supporter”, I told them “no”, and that was it. It’s really not easy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/18 "2014-08-14T14:34:20Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I guess better safe than sorry… but I can tell you that more aggressive men seem to be doing better than I am with sex. Whether this is true or not, it doesn’t tell you anything about the most moral way to behave. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s fair to have men worry SO much about crossing a line that seems to be drawn in different places for different people. You shouldn’t have to worry about it. Don’t grope women. That’s pretty easy. If you’re on a park bench, or a sofa in your apartment, with a date, it’s okay to try to kiss her (slowly). If she turns away, or says “no”, than don’t kiss her. It’s okay to try and put your hand around her shoulders. If she moves your hand, or she says “no”, than that means you should stop. It’s not okay to grope her. > [@](#): > > I’ve been touched by women that I didn’t want to be touching me… I didn’t tell them they were a rape supporter, I told them “no”, and that was it. And that’s probably what will happen if you touch a woman who doesn’t want to be touched by you. > [@](#): > > It’s really not easy. It may not seem like it, but it doesn’t have to be difficult at all. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/19 "2014-08-14T14:43:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And that’s probably what will happen if you touch a woman who doesn’t want to be touched by you. This may be true (I’m not sure) but it’s worth noting that a woman is _less_ likely to say no than the OP is. Women often do not feel secure enough to think it will be okay to refuse in cases like this. Another reason it is best to follow the principle of (as the OP put it) “better safe than sorry.” To follow up on what **iiiandyiii** said elsewhere in the post, if the OP’s real question is “how am I supposed to get as much sex as those guys who don’t care as much about respecting women?”, the answer is, be prepared for the possibility that you _shouldn’t_ “get as much sex” as those guys. They may be getting their orgasms at the expense of some women’s social and psychological well-being. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/20 "2014-08-14T14:46:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether this is true or not, it doesn’t tell you anything about the most moral way to behave. > > You shouldn’t have to worry about it. Don’t grope women. That’s pretty easy. If you’re on a park bench, or a sofa in your apartment, with a date, it’s okay to try to kiss her (slowly). If she turns away, or says “no”, than don’t kiss her. It’s okay to try and put your hand around her shoulders. If she moves your hand, or she says “no”, than that means you should stop. > > It’s not okay to grope her. > > And that’s probably what will happen if you touch a woman who doesn’t want to be touched by you. > > It may not seem like it, but it doesn’t have to be difficult at all. I agree with some of what you’re saying, but it does SEEM to be difficult. I’m not as smooth as some men, so the transition from kissing to groping might be harder for a dude like me. I wouldn’t WANT to do anything that wasn’t mutually pleasurable. I just think that it DOES sound complicated. I guess it would be nice to live in a culture where women would instigate sex as much as men. Why is it generally our responsibility if women are victimized so much? Just asking… not being snarky. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513.md?page=2)