# What's the deal with Feminists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513 "2014-08-14T13:34:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/81 "2014-08-17T02:01:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite? Is this like Newt Gingrich’s ‘women evolved to sit at home while men evolved to hunt giraffes’? Cue some unfalsifiable, panadaptational evo-psych in 3, 2, 1… > **[The Female Brain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Brain)** > > The Female Brain may refer to: [Brizendine] notes that until puberty, boys and girls are exactly the same in mathematical and scientific achievement. However, the testosterone that floods the male brain makes boys extremely competitive but also more willing to spend many hours studying alone or working on their computers. With the teenage girl’s flood of estrogen, in contrast, a female becomes a lot more interested in social bonding and her emotional life, and as a consequence is unlikely to sit for hours alone pondering mathematical puzzles or battling to top the class. Even as adults women are compelled by their brain chemistry to want to communicate and connect, and this favors them less for the sort of solitary work often required for mathematical, scientific, or engineering careers. Brizendine’s theory in a nutshell: It is not a lack of aptitude that makes women stay out of these fields, but brain-driven attitudes of the work involved. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/82 "2014-08-17T02:05:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > [The Female Brain - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Brain) > > [Brizendine] notes that until puberty, boys and girls are exactly the same in mathematical and scientific achievement. However, the testosterone that floods the male brain makes boys extremely competitive but also more willing to spend many hours studying alone or working on their computers. With the teenage girl’s flood of estrogen, in contrast, a female becomes a lot more interested in social bonding and her emotional life, and as a consequence is unlikely to sit for hours alone pondering mathematical puzzles or battling to top the class. Even as adults women are compelled by their brain chemistry to want to communicate and connect, and this favors them less for the sort of solitary work often required for mathematical, scientific, or engineering careers. Brizendine’s theory in a nutshell: It is not a lack of aptitude that makes women stay out of these fields, but brain-driven attitudes of the work involved. This book was [poorly cited](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/books/review/Henig.t.html?_r=0) on the scientific evidence, and not nearly accepted as authoritative. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/83 "2014-08-17T02:23:23Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > But see, for the life of me, I can’t think of a reason why this would be so that doesn’t involve men being hostile and/or discouraging. I mean, unless you want to argue that something in the feminine brain or hormones makes them not like those fields as much, what else is there? My academic background is in the sexual differentiation of behavioral neuroscience in the Ivy Leagues. It isn’t a fringe field although many people have a problem with the idea in general. Quite to the contrary, typical male and female brains are quite different and become that way during early fetal development. All brains start out as female but most males switch to the male pattern during phases called ‘critical periods’ cause development to take one of two forks depending on the hormonal environment. The results are fairly profound and most people don’t take it easily because they are scientifically illiterate in this field even after over 40 years of breakthroughs. Let me give you one non-controversial example. The female menstrual cycle is controlled by both the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus. That seems obvious that females and males would differ in a small way in that regard but it is much more profound than that. The pattern of hypothalamus development is determined during fetal development and depends on ‘critical periods’ that open and close during a very short time window. If certain hormones like testosterone among others are present in sufficient quantities during that critical period, you get a male, otherwise, you get a female (the default is always female). The hypothalamus controls a whole lot more things than just the menstrual cycle though. It is a brain control center that helps determine everything from appetite to sexual preference. Larry Summers said nothing that was truly controversial even within the context of behavioral neuroscience researchers, other psychologists and biologists among others. He did manage to tick off a group of people that believe in their own myths rather than accept the truth. I don’t know what their motives were because nothing he said was very offensive at all but it is another reason why I cannot align myself with the feminist label. Many of them are just irrational hate-mongers that are more interested in suppressing any potential opposing commentary rather than having an intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/84 "2014-08-17T03:43:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This book was [poorly cited](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/books/review/Henig.t.html?_r=0) on the scientific evidence, and not nearly accepted as authoritative. New York Times-to-English Translation: I didn’t want to read any of her numerous cites and I don’t like the words she uses. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/85 "2014-08-17T04:49:09Z")
FWIW, Women In Computer Science generally recommends adding group projects. They’ve found that generally programs with more group projects tend to have much lower drop out rates among women. Whether this preference for group work is nature, nurture, due to brain physiology or the endocrine system or mere cultural conditioning or whatever else is up in the air. But as far as I know there is evidence to support that, in Computer Science at least, making classes more social and group-oriented tends to make women more likely to succeed and stick with the program. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/86 "2014-08-17T13:38:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > My academic background is in the sexual differentiation of behavioral neuroscience in the Ivy Leagues. It isn’t a fringe field although many people have a problem with the idea in general. Quite to the contrary, typical male and female brains are quite different and become that way during early fetal development. All brains start out as female but most males switch to the male pattern during phases called ‘critical periods’ cause development to take one of two forks depending on the hormonal environment. The results are fairly profound and most people don’t take it easily because they are scientifically illiterate in this field even after over 40 years of breakthroughs. Or, as almost every feminist mom who has ended up with a boy or girl says “they just come OUT different and there isn’t anything you can do about it.” And on the equality word - yep, you are right, but you were talking about connotations. That’s the reason I don’t like equalist. To me, it implies that sort of macro level equality. Including getting more men to college - and again - that is an AWESOME goal - if they want to go there. My fifteen year old son would prefer trade school. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/87 "2014-08-17T15:37:56Z")
“Feminism” is meaningless. Feminists themselves can’t agree about what it means, and the compromise - that feminism is about “choice” is vapid nonsense. If it’s about “choice” shouldn’t it be called libertarianism? Or, if it’s about choices, but only for women, then it’s pure hypocrisy. In real life, women like confident, assertive men. Men who act like feminists tell them to act are dooming themselves to a life of celibacy. And many men would rather just shoot themselves in the head. No amount college brainwashing is going to erase millions of years of evolution, basic biology, or flush sex hormones out of men and women’s heads. Women have no idea what it’s like to be a man, and a political ideology that says, “we want to do whatever we want, and we want to make _you_ do whatever we want” is doomed before it begins. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/88 "2014-08-17T18:57:55Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > In real life, women like confident, assertive men. Many women do. Some women don’t. One person’s “confident and assertive” is another person’s “arrogant and belligerent”. > [@](#): > > Men who act like feminists tell them to act are dooming themselves to a life of celibacy. LOL. Very easily proven to be false. > [@](#): > > And many men would rather just shoot themselves in the head. No amount college brainwashing is going to erase millions of years of evolution, basic biology, or flush sex hormones out of men and women’s heads. And feminism has no interest in brainwashing or erasing years of evolution. > [@](#): > > Women have no idea what it’s like to be a man, and a political ideology that says, “we want to do whatever we want, and we want to make _you_ do whatever we want” is doomed before it begins. That ideology sounds pretty doomed, but it has nothing to do with feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/89 "2014-08-17T19:54:06Z")
The problem with feminists is that they enjoy bathing in the tears of men. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/90 "2014-08-17T20:25:01Z")
If you’ll excuse me while I bring up where we were 50 years ago … Home and Hearth, Kids and Furniture, and duty to your husband: Youtube video [March 24, 1961 - New First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy interviewed by Sander Vanocur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3ZvIzL1JbI) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/91 "2014-08-17T22:20:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The problem with feminists is that they enjoy bathing in the tears of men. Its part of the feminist platform and to call yourself a feminist you must, in fact, take the oath that you will collect the tears on men for the sisterhood to bathe in. We are all given a quota, if you don’t meet it, you are kicked out of the feminista and forced to wear high heels while getting your man a beer from the fridge. ---
**Author:** ![TRex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@TRex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TRex)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/92 "2014-08-18T13:55:11Z")
In my mind it’s pretty simple. Feminists, whether they’re male or female, want equal rights for women. It’s about choice. To expect every feminist to agree with each other is ridiculous. It’s like asking ‘what’s the deal with black haired people?’ And when it comes to rape that’s pretty simple too. If a person says no, stop. You feel like going out and raping someone? Don’t. Right, that’s that sorted. Next? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/93 "2014-08-18T14:59:07Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I hadn’t seen that one, and it is rather disturbing. > > I’ve got a couple others (not for insurance, though) that I think portray men very poorly, but that would be a bit of a hijack. My point was just that anybody can probably find something in the media to be insulted by. I don’t think the issue is simple, or one-sided. I saw one this weekend for Lowes that made me NUTS! Dad and three kids and skyping with Mom who appears to be on a business trip. All looks well until the call terminates and the viewer sees a little scrubbed area where the computer camera can see but the rest of the house in ciaos. Dad is obviously unable to handle things with Mom working at her career which alludes to the fact that if Mom were home, this mess wouldn’t be happening. My head exploded. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxN_my0OE9M)it is. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/94 "2014-08-18T15:05:26Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > You think that represents “hatred or dislike” of women? > > That is pretty ridiculous. I absolutely do. Women have their place and it isn’t anywhere but in the home cleaning up after her husband and their children. She is nothing but a slave to the breadwinning male doing the grunt work so he can slay the dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/95 "2014-08-18T17:47:30Z")
I found that commercial unnecessarily norm-reinforcing too. I think it was for Valspar rather than Lowes’ though. > [@Jragon](#): > > FWIW, Women In Computer Science generally recommends adding group projects. They’ve found that generally programs with more group projects tend to have much lower drop out rates among women. Whether this preference for group work is nature, nurture, due to brain physiology or the endocrine system or mere cultural conditioning or whatever else is up in the air. But as far as I know there is evidence to support that, in Computer Science at least, making classes more social and group-oriented tends to make women more likely to succeed and stick with the program. My completely non-scientific theory is that women are more likely to suck it up and deal when faced with useless group project partners. My wife carried a dozen people through her Masters’ program. Men (IME) are more likely to sulk and accept the shitty grade the group deserves “as a whole”, or even torpedo the project out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/96 "2014-08-18T18:37:41Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I saw one this weekend for Lowes that made me NUTS! Dad and three kids and skyping with Mom who appears to be on a business trip. All looks well until the call terminates and the viewer sees a little scrubbed area where the computer camera can see but the rest of the house in ciaos. Dad is obviously unable to handle things with Mom working at her career which alludes to the fact that if Mom were home, this mess wouldn’t be happening. My head exploded. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxN_my0OE9M)it is. You think that commercial is denigrating to women? It shows a woman (professional and successful by the look of things) conducting some important business away from home, and a man who can’t take care of his kids and keep that home from descending into utter chaos. His incompetence is such that food is even falling from the ceiling. And he’s the one shown starting to clean things up at the end. Your mileage may vary, but to me that’s a much more negative portrayal of men. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/97 "2014-08-18T19:01:08Z")
She wasn’t complaining about commercials being denigrating to women, per se. She was complaining that they strengthen classical gender role stereotypes: [QUOTE=Foxy40] I am not exactly sure what your point is. I find it very misogynistic for a woman to be portrayed as the homemaker and cleaner for most every cleaning product. [/QUOTE] If the husband is some bumbling idiot around the house, it follows that the wife is the one who does all the cooking and cleaning - even if she is also a successful professional. In any event, I doubt most feminists are fans of commercials which portray men as idiots in and of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/98 "2014-08-18T19:18:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You think that commercial is denigrating to women? It shows a woman (professional and successful by the look of things) conducting some important business away from home, and a man who can’t take care of his kids and keep that home from descending into utter chaos. His incompetence is such that food is even falling from the ceiling. And he’s the one shown starting to clean things up at the end. > > Your mileage may vary, but to me that’s a much more negative portrayal of men. Pretty much, though not really a very negative portrayal of anybody. The implication is that the woman is multi-talented and can be a homemaker _ **and** _ a successful business person, whereas the man is obviously not used to the homemaker end of things. Mostly a harmless attempt at humor. > [@Foxy40](#): > > I absolutely do. Women have their place and it isn’t anywhere but in the home cleaning up after her husband and their children. She is nothing but a slave to the breadwinning male doing the grunt work so he can slay the dragons. I speak as someone who hates commercials on general principle, but to be fair, they usually best meet their goals by reflecting contemporary norms, not pushing their boundaries. Up until the late 50s and maybe even beyond, women were portrayed in commercials and magazine ads pretty much literally as you describe – not just in terms of stereotyped gender roles, but in terms of the cowering housewife relieved that the advertiser’s superb product has enabled her to make a meal or a cup of coffee so excellent that it has mollified a grumpy husband, whose gratification is clearly the sole purpose of her life. No one would be caught dead putting out an ad like that today. Advertisers want to be seen as hip and forward-looking, but not so much as to call attention to that fact and maybe making people wonder about hidden agendas. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/99 "2014-08-18T19:25:42Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Feminists are often accused of lacking a sense of humor, which is pretty accurate On that subject: [Nellie McKay – Mother of Pearl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UaqAS93VwQ) ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513/100 "2014-08-24T05:41:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > That’s not really what the MRAs are all about. They’re basically a bunch of sexist jackasses who don’t like the fact that men no longer have special priviledges anymore. Do you really believe that? I don’t normally consider myself an MRA, but I’m willing to stand behind that label at least to the extent that I owe a debt to them. When I was looking for help in an abusive marriage, I got some excellent advice from some MRA affiliated websites that pretty much kept me from deciding the only way out was suicide. Some counseling, a separation, and a divorce later, my life has never been better. It’s not easy getting a clean break from someone suffering from BPD and willing to cheat, lie, steal, and slander, but I did it, and it’s definitely not organized feminism I have to thank for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-feminists/695513.md?page=6)