I’m not trying to get “as much sex as possible”, ftr, but I certainly want more experience than I’ve had…
I think you’re asking about “caressing”, not “groping”. Groping implies a lack of consent, and a lack of desire from the one being groped.
The next paragraph probably gets beyond the original question, and perhaps beyond Great Debates in general, but because you’re the OP, here goes:
On the aforementioned sofa, after you’ve put your arm around her, and after you’ve kissed her, and she’s shown no signs of trying to resist/move away/say “no”/etc., it might be okay to slowly and gently start caressing her (but not straight to the boob/butt/crotch!), taking your time and taking care to notice any possible signs of distress from her. If she’s a “dead fish”, STOP. If she says “no” or “stop”, STOP. If she tries to move away, STOP. If she gives you any other indication that she might possibly not be into what’s going on, STOP. If she puts her arm around you too, and she kisses you back, and she caresses you back, then it’s probably okay to continue.
All of this assumes you’re both not intoxicated, and you’re both adults, of course.
Some women are happy to “instigate sex”. Just take things slow, be a decent and respectful person, feel free to ask questions and talk about things (even when you’re afraid it might turn her off), don’t grope women, don’t assault women, don’t assume you have the right to any sexual favors or sexual intimacy from any particular person (you don’t!), don’t take advantage of drunk women, etc.
Well, somewhere in between “I’d like to take off your hat. Please sign here if you consent.” and sticking your hand up her blouse completely unannounced is where you’re aiming.
It sounds like a very broad area, but that’s because it depends on the woman concerned, her mood and the nature of the relationship between you. You do need to figure things out for yourself situationally but, if you’re in any doubt at all, ask.
Also, while “rape culture” is a real issue that needs to be addressed, it won’t help you at all to politicize your own personal interactions with women.
Thank you. This is a very good point.
This is still the case in every U.S. jurisdiction that I know. Of course, the crime of rape is not unique in this: it is generally a bad idea to allow a jury to hear that a defendant has had accusations against him in the past. Juries give extreme (some would say undue) weight to prior accusations and crimes – even when the evidence points away from the defendant, juries will convict if they hear that he’s had a similar accusation in the past.
Say you’ve got a crazy neighbor who constantly files police reports against you for no reason. The police investigate each one and determine they’re all unfounded. When you get arrested for something unrelated, you don’t want the jury hearing: “Would a law-abiding citizen have over 50 criminal accusations against him?”
Now on the other hand, actual convictions are a different story. In general, past crimes cannot be used as evidence for similar reasons as accusations. I.e. juries give past acts way more weight than they should. What if a career criminal turns over a new leaf? Should he be forced to live with his old crimes? Similarly, the police could simply arrest any known criminal whenever there’s a crime and the jury will convict him based on his prior crimes. The state would never need to prove he committed this crime. This principle is codified (for federal courts) in Federal Rule of Evidence 404(b).
But rape is an exception. The state is allowed to provide the jury evidence of past sexual assault convictions (not accusations) when the defendant is being tried for sexual assault. See Federal Rule of Evidence 413. Same for child molestation – FRE 414. Whether this is a good idea is probably a subject for another thread.
I really appreciate the advice. I really don’t want to sound as if I don’t appreciate you contributing. I would love to hear what others think too.
I just re-read my OP, I’m sorry I’m all over the place. I guess there’s a lot I have to learn about feminism in general. I guess that’s why it’s so broad.
I’ve read things from women that seem extreme though. If you laugh at the wrong joke, you’re a “rape supporter”, if you think prostitution should be legal, you’re a “rape supporter”, if you watch a T.V, show, play, movie that “objectifies” women, you’re a “rape supporter”, ect. It just seems like some women think ALL women are ‘delicate little flowers’.
I mean, almost anything out there seems as though it could be construed as an objectification of women, (probably men too).
I wouldn’t worry too much about the extreme stuff. If someone says a racist/sexist/bigoted joke, though, I think the best response is to not laugh and to say “that joke is inappropriate”, or something, depending on the company.
I’ve heard such jokes from professional comedians… I’ve heard jokes about men too. To me, if they are ACTUALY funny, it’s all fair game.
That’s because it is – in the GOOD sense of “difficult” as in “requires one to pay attention and apply some effort”. But OVERthinking it is counterproductive.
When you are told the asking is a turn-off it can be one of various things: (a) the asking was clumsy and revealed inexperience, (b) the asking was mistimed and came across as “OK, when can I skip the small talk and proceed to the assgrabbing?”, (c) you ran into one of those people who expects mind-reading (they do exist), (d) she’s just looking for Mr. Smooth, plain and simple; etc.
None of which is necessarily tied in with feminism, IMO.
It’s like all those other terms in that if you don’t hold exactly the same concept, you’re likely to piss off the other person. I think “feminist” holds pretty much top rank in the breadth of vehemently-defended definitions and positions, from those of us who think men and women should pretty much be treated equally and given equal opportunities while allowing for real gender differences, to the extreme anti-male all-sex-involving-a-penis-is-rape fruitcakes.
Second only to “liberal” and the old no-two-definitions-alike standard, “libertarian.”
The term feminist defines many different kinds of people. There are people like me that have to switch off and refuse to buy any cleaning product showing the female only doing the mopping or “unfriend” on facebook women who post memes about how to treat your woman (vs how all people should be treated in a relationship). There are women who feel like women should have a choice whether to work or stay at home and they consider themselves feminists. There are the women who hate men and feel like they are the reason women have been oppressed. There are the women like you that think equality means equal pay for equal work and thereare all men and women in between. It encompasses a lot but what I don’t understand is women that reject the idea of being labeled a feminist of any kind.
Here’s the thing- it almost never hurts to ask, and no means no. Don’t be paralyzed because you’re afraid that the woman is going to be totally aghast if you try and kiss her, or if you’re kissing her and you go for some boob, and so-forth and so-on.
There’s at least an expectation that you might try, and they’ll say no, and all will be well. Just don’t try too many times- once or maybe twice is good enough. And don’t get ahead of yourself- just because you are kissing her doesn’t mean it’s time to go south of the equator (so to speak), unless she’s grabbing your hand, or undoing your pants, or something along those lines.
Does that mean, when people are advised to lock their doors, hide their valuables and on ways to avoid pickpockets, that we’re perpetuating a ‘theft culture’?
I get the other stuff. I just haven’t ever been comfortable with this argument. I think there’s an underlying assumption there that, while thieves are a tiny proportion of the population, both inevitable and unchangeable, almost all men are potential rapists and all we have to do is explain as a society why rape is wrong and that will fix the problem for good.
I do believe 1) that telling a woman after she was raped how she should have prevented it is a very shitty, unhelpful and counterproductive thing to do, and 2) that dressing “modestly” is not a way to prevent rape, and that telling someone they dressed wrong IS blaming the victim. But I think these things don’t happen as often as some think. Maybe I’m ignorant. But it certainly doesn’t seem to be so entrenched in our culture as to define it.
But things like “stay away from so-and-so, I heard he was a rapist”, “Carry mace in your purse”, “In this part of town you’re more likely to be raped” or “Alcohol makes you vastly more likely to be a victim of date rape, please make sure you have close friends keep an eye on you when you’re out drinking” are reasonable precautions and not victim blaming.
I’ve even heard women argue against self-defense classes for women, because women shouldn’t have to defend themselves against rapists! No shit, that doesn’t mean self defense isn’t a good idea for everyone. You never know when you’re going to need it, whether you “should have to” or not.
No, but if you’re talking to a woman in a way that assumes that she has no common sense and doesn’t know things like “don’t get drunk with strangers” and “don’t walk around naked late at night”, then this is another (relatively minor) aspect of rape culture. Most of the time, at least in my opinion, when men are talking about how women can avoid rape, this is how it comes out.
Women know these things. And in general, these things don’t prevent rape. They might in some very few cases, but the ones who actually need to be educated to prevent rape are men (not all men, obviously).
Reminds me of that Sex and the City episode where Miranda was buying a place on her own. She was a highly paid attorney with plenty of money to spend on it. The mortgage dude acted like it was the strangest thing in the world that she didn’t have a co-signer or anyone else giving her money for the down payment.
Andy’s right on.
The first move is touching her arm. Or holding her hand. Or leaning in while talking to her, without touching at all.
If the response to these things is she pulls back, she isn’t into you. If not, then, when you are ready (and this isn’t a checklist with a timetable), you move onto the next step.
The next step could be a hand on her leg - above the knee - but not higher than halfway up - or it could be leaning in for a kiss. It could be draping your arm around her while sitting on the couch. Again, if she pulls back, she isn’t all that into you. If she snuggles in, returns the kiss, touches you in return, that’s encouragement.
Somewhere around step six or seven in this dance is groping - i.e. grabbing a breast or crotch. Or putting your hands under clothing. It comes after gentle carasses, kisses, and nibbles on the neck sort of behavior.
What women TEND to think of as sexual assault is they’ve been on the dance floor with a guy and head off to the ladies room. Guy follows them and suddenly, they are in a corner with a hand on their ass and another squeezing their breast. Or being held tight while some drunk runs his tongue up your neck. That isn’t a first move for anyone you haven’t had sex with before - and are mutually really hot for each other - from a guy you just danced with for three and a half minutes - its sexual assault.
And what happens if said woman reports that sexual assault is pretty much nothing. To some extent, we are supposed to accept that a short skirt, a Jack and coke, and a sweaty dance on the dance floor is sufficient encouragement and permission for such behavior, and the price for going out dancing and having a good time with your girlfriends might be getting licked by a guy who might have yelled his name at you over the music. And that PART of what is meant by a rape culture.
I don’t let my dog hump and lick people he’s only known for five minutes…why some guys think that its appropriate behavior for them is really a mystery.
By that standard, guys would have a hard time buying any insurance. Watch their commercials and see which gender is causing all the accidents.
I am not exactly sure what your point is. I find it very misogynistic for a woman to be portrayed as the homemaker and cleaner for most every cleaning product. Auto insurance commercials aren’t advertising that all men or women are the ones that get in accidents. A quick youtube search found those accident ads about equal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTFTmeDprOQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnS0tSO4TcQ http://youtu.be/tywC-gRXbq0