# What's the deal with Jews and color names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127 "2018-09-10T21:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/21 "2018-09-12T03:13:23Z")
There is apparently a myth that when Austrian Jews were forced to adopt family names, the name-granting officials accepted bribes for “better” names and otherwise gave insulting names. This article seeks to dispel that myth — “Did Jews Buy Their Last Names?” > **[Opinion | Did Jews Buy Their Last Names?](https://forward.com/opinion/391341/did-jews-buy-their-last-names/)** > > As with many aspects of Jewish culture, religion, genetics and heritage, the origins of Jewish last names is ensconced in more myth than fact. There apparently were some genuinely insulting names assigned, but the vast majority of German-speaking Jews have non-insulting names: > [@](#): > > As legend would have it, these officials created lists in which the price corresponded to the names. “Beautiful” sounding surnames, like words for precious stones or flowers (think Goldstein, which means “golden stone,” or Rosenthal, which means “rose valley,” or Silberberg, meaning “silver mountain”) were the most expensive. Last names including the names of ordinary metals (think of Eisenberg, meaning “iron mountain,” or Kupferstein, meaning “copper stone”) were cheaper. Names like Adler, meaning “eagle,” and Schwalbe, meaning “swallow,” were free of charge. Finally, anti-Semitic officials assigned “contemptuous” names simply to spite their future Jewish bearers. These nsmes might include Niemand (“nobody”), Affengesicht (“monkey face”), Mausfall (“mousetrap”) or – perhaps most insulting of all — Wanzreich (“rich in bedbugs” or “kingdom of bedbugs”). > > … > > And yet there are not a large number of contemptuous anti-Semitic names in Galicia (fortunately, we don’t hesitate to add). > > In my etymological dictionary of Galicia, there are about 37,000 surnames, and only a few dozen fall under the category of derogatory or ridiculous names. These include Deligtisch (“criminal”), Geschwür (“ulcer”), Katzenflügel (“cat’s wing), Krebsfuss (“crab’s paw”), Messerscharff (“as sharp as a knife”), Zeitlich (“temporary”), Sting (“stony”) and Zweighaft (“branched”), Falschberg (“false mountain”) and Sommerfeind (“enemy of summer”). Interestingly, numerous other “friends” also seem to result from mockery, although some of them form quite positive images: Bauerenfreund (“friend of peasants”), Weisenfreund (“friend of orphans”), Kinderfreund (“friend of children”), Judenfreund (“friend of Jews”), Bergenfreund (“friend of mountains”), and Rosenfreund (“friend of roses”). > > Read more: [Did Jews Buy Their Last Names? – The Forward](https://forward.com/opinion/391341/did-jews-buy-their-last-names/) ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/22 "2018-09-12T03:41:10Z")
How is “sharp as a knife”, “stony”, or “branched” derogatory? “Cat’s wing” is just badass, although it is also ridiculous. I’d like to know why, with how commonly names for groups of people have changed over the years, Jews haven’t renamed Ashkenazi to something that doesn’t contain the word “nazi.” I know that name predates the German use of the term but still, you’d think in recent years there would be a push to rename that particular descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Mumberthax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mumberthax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mumberthax)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/23 "2018-09-12T04:21:02Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Add another color: “Roth” is derived from “red.” Perhaps you meant the German word _Rot_, which means ‘red’? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/24 "2018-09-12T08:46:38Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Because it is ignoring their historic connection to the honored Levi or Cohen tribe, and reducing them to being named by their occupation. And yet, Cohen and Levi are still the most common Jewish surnames. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/25 "2018-09-12T10:14:53Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Perhaps you meant the German word _Rot_, which means ‘red’? > **[Roth (surname)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_(surname))** > > Roth (/rɒθ/) is an English, German, or Jewish origin surname. There are seven theories on its origin:\[citation needed\] > Note: Roth is not originally a Hebrew surname. Its origins are in northern Europe, and it is a common name in Scotland and other English-speaking countries as well as in German-speaking countries. For historic reasons, the Jewish people adopted various established names, many of which were common amongst non-Jewish people in their respective countries. > The first English-languag... “Roth” is just a very close variant of “rot,” if you look at the bigger picture of Germanic languages over the past one or two thousand years. Look at the slightly bigger picture, and modern English “red” (and “ruddy”) is just another variant of what philologists would consider basically the same “word”. French “rouge,” Spanish “rojo,” etc. are close cousins. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/26 "2018-09-12T14:12:59Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Because it is ignoring their historic connection to the honored Levi or Cohen tribe, and reducing them to being named by their occupation. Making them change their name is of course pretty insulting but the names themselves are not. As mentioned, the vast majority of these colour names refer to smithing and Smith is about the most common gentile name there is in the English speaking world. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/27 "2018-09-12T17:53:11Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Perhaps you meant the German word _Rot_, which means ‘red’? Roth is a very standard old-fashioned spelling of the same word, still well known today. Rothschild means “Red Shield”, not “child of Roth”. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/28 "2018-09-12T18:11:45Z")
Being assigned a name has at the very least a small insult baked into it no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/29 "2018-09-12T19:08:48Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I’d like to know why, with how commonly names for groups of people have changed over the years, Jews haven’t renamed Ashkenazi to something that doesn’t contain the word “nazi.” I know that name predates the German use of the term but still, you’d think in recent years there would be a push to rename that particular descriptor. Why is that a thing you think people would want? It’s not even pronounced the same. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/30 "2018-09-12T19:19:33Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Perhaps you meant the German word _Rot_, which means ‘red’? Yes. Then apply Grimm’s Law. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2018, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/31 "2018-09-13T11:14:37Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Yes. > > Then apply Grimm’s Law. That’s a joke, right? Grimm’s Law applies to changes that took place circa 500 BC. Also, it had to do with changes in pronunciation, because the Germanic languages then were unwritten. Rot and Roth are pronounced exactly the same in German. I wonder what the h was even doing there in the first place, but to keep it in English-speaking countries is obviously preferable. Likewise, there are German women named Rut, but you better believe in an English-speaking country they’d be Ruth. I once met a nice old couple from Hungary whose last name was Vitriol. I had difficulty comprehending how anybody could have that for their name, but then I learned about the malicious Austro-Hungarian registrars. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/32 "2018-09-14T08:52:36Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I once met a nice old couple from Hungary whose last name was Vitriol. I had difficulty comprehending how anybody could have that for their name, but then I learned about the malicious Austro-Hungarian registrars. After looking up, it seems that, as already mentioned in this thread, the “malicious Austro-Hungarian registrars” story is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/33 "2018-09-14T13:32:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > After looking up, it seems that, as already mentioned in this thread, the “malicious Austro-Hungarian registrars” story is a myth. I always suspected you were a Magyar-spewing Austro-Hungarian sympathizer. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/34 "2018-09-14T14:57:45Z")
I knew a Jewish kid at camp whose surname was Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/35 "2018-09-14T15:22:26Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > Perhaps you meant the German word _Rot_, which means ‘red’? “Roth” was the standard spelling until the reform of 1876. It could still be found well into the early 1900s. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/36 "2018-09-14T15:24:31Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I once met a nice old couple from Hungary whose last name was Vitriol. I had difficulty comprehending how anybody could have that for their name, but then I learned about the malicious Austro-Hungarian registrars. Vitriol isn’t necessarily offensive. Besides sulfuric acid, it also means a type of colourful crystal. > **[Vitriol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitriol)** > > Vitriol is the general chemical name encompassing a class of chemical compounds comprising sulfates of certain metals – originally, iron or copper. Those mineral substances were distinguished by their color, such as green vitriol for hydrated iron(II) sulfate and blue vitriol for hydrated copper(II) sulfate. > These materials were found originally as crystals formed by evaporation of groundwater that percolated through sulfide minerals and collected in pools on the floors of old mines. The word v... ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/37 "2018-09-14T18:32:12Z")
> [@Apollon](#): > > “Roth” was the standard spelling until the reform of 1876. It could still be found well into the early 1900s. Yes, I thought about mentioning this; specifically IIRC subsequent to the 1901 Orthographische Konferenz it is now strictly speaking “incorrect” to spell roth for rot, thun for tun, etc., whereas before 1876 many of the “th” spellings were standard or preferred. Note that the /θ/ phoneme is rather rare these days, in particular nonexistent in modern German and Germanic languages (English is one of the exceptions). As for the wisdom of spelling reform, that is way outside the scope of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/38 "2018-09-21T18:56:43Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s a joke, right? Grimm’s Law applies to changes that took place circa 500 BC. Also, it had to do with changes in pronunciation, because the Germanic languages then were unwritten. Rot and Roth are pronounced exactly the same in German. Sorry, but Grimm’s Law never went away; I’ve seen examples of it in the early 80s\* and occasionally spot them even today. \*A dictionary of prison slang I read back then had “vic” as the interest on the loan. This is obviously derived from “vigorish” (interest on a loan, first showing up in the late 1950s), shorted to “vig,” and then Grimm’s took over. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127/39 "2018-09-21T20:02:26Z")
Tangentially related to the subject of this thread: family names on _Grön-_ (Swedish for _Green-_), like Grönfors, Grönroos and Grönhall seem to be somewhat common among Finnish Roma families (yes, Swedish is an official language in Suomi too :))! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-jews-and-color-names/821127.md?page=1)