# What's the deal with "legal" size paper? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622 "2011-02-16T20:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/41 "2011-02-19T06:44:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > AWhy do Indians use the term “poached egg” to describe a fried egg? So what do they call an actual poached egg? ---
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/42 "2011-02-19T08:33:47Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > What exactly is the confusion? Do we also have to eat your favourite flavour of ice cream and wear clothes in your preferred style too? Nope; you can eat your sheep-dung ice-cream and wear neon-green mankinis until the cows come home, for all I care. With paper sizes, though, it’s a nuisance to produce documents formatted for two different sizes. This becomes a particular problem in the case of documents where the pagination is fixed, such as PDFs, forcing you to scale the document when printing, and have very large margins. It’s a common problem when receiving or sending documents to American clients; the printing goes all screwy on both ends. With documents that are repaginated when opened (such as Word documents) just opening the file on a different locale can completely screw up formatting, making related objects split across multiple pages and introducing blank pages because of page breaks. Relax and ease off the coffee; it’s not about the Big Global Conspiracy to Take Over Your Life, it’s just much easier to work with a single paper standard when working globally. Your comparison to ice-cream and clothing is not really valid, since those don’t cause problems of the same sort. > [@acsenray](#): > > More sensible? Your A4 paper is sentient? That’s amazing. Ours is just pulped wood. Newsflash: words have multiple meanings. Look in particular at meanings 6 and 7: [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensible](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensible). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/43 "2011-02-19T12:21:07Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > So what do they call an actual poached egg? They don’t call them anything. It’s not commonly prepared that way. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/44 "2011-02-19T13:36:13Z")
What you in the US refer to as “legal paper” is called “foolscap” in the British Commonwealth countries. I don’t know about the Continent et al. As a schoolboy in the late 1960s foolscap was the standard size of a ringbinder and the pad of paper. By the mid-70s A4 was making its mark and by 1980 was becoming standard. I started legal practise in 1979 and don’t recall a lot of foolscap documents surviving by that time. We still prepared wills on goatskin foolscap which were sewn with green tape. All court documents were folded down in thirds. Leases and title deeds were also foolscap. The march of progress and standardisation of photocopiers, typewriters, then computer printers, faxes etc through the 1980s saw foolscap disappear. So I was delighted on a journey to the US to discover your legal sized paper was still fighting a rear-guard action against bland modernity. All power to you. In truth I envy American lawyers their yellow legal pads which are a delight to write on and provide that extra space often needed when making notes. It doesn’t exist in New Zealand. Just bland white A4 blocks. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/45 "2011-02-19T13:40:36Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > okay, you legal-beagle snobs…riddle me this: why ,why, oh why do you have to use canary yellow? > > White paper is easy on the eyes. White paper works well with any color ink. White is pretty. White is _respectable_. Personally I like the yellow and wish we had it here. There is research which indicates black print on a yellow background is the easiest to read. Blue print works well on yellow too. And no…of course I can’t find a reference. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/46 "2011-02-19T14:56:57Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Well, AFAIK you guys are the only ones who insist on using non-ISO-standard paper sizes. OTOH, you’re also about the only industrialized country which refuses to go metric, so it’s somewhat fitting (although we don’t really understand _why_ you’re so stubborn about conforming to the rest of the world). It’s hard to justify the cost of the conversion. Plus, if there were a debate on this in 2011, somebody would start a political party claiming that the bible uses feet and inches and that Mr. Obama’s trying to convert everybody to a Martian religion. In Canada we use the same paper sizes as in the U.S., even though Canada adopted metric/SI around 1977. > [@](#): > > One advantage with A4 is the aspect ratio. It’s 1:1.4142, which means that if you double the size (to A3), it keeps the aspect ratio. Or if you cut it in two (to A5), that has the same aspect ratio too. I’m sure this gives somebody, somewhere, the impression that these paper sizes are a natural consequence of the structure of the universe… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/47 "2011-02-19T16:09:14Z")
From what I can see, legal size is still standard for all purposes in the Court of Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/48 "2011-02-20T05:13:18Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > What you in the US refer to as “legal paper” is called “foolscap” in the British Commonwealth countries. Hey, thanks for that! I’ve read the term “foolscap” several times when reading British authors, and via context I’ve always known it meant paper, but I mistakenly assumed it referred to a _variety_ of paper, i.e. vellum, parchment, foolscap, etc. I didn’t realize it was the word for a specific _size_ of the paper. A4 … I like it. I ended up needing to buy it when I was playing Dungeons & Dragons and I found some custom-designed character sheets that were far superior to the default character sheet that comes in the back of the D&D Player’s Handbook. These custom sheets were designed by a guy in England, and were formatted for A4 paper. I had discovered that if I scaled them down to fit an 8.5" x 11" sheet, the type became uncomfortably small, and printing them on legal-sized paper just wasted a lot of space (and the paper hung out of my 3-ring binder). So I ordered a ream of A4 from a place I found online. I found the dimensions aesthetically pleasing. ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/49 "2011-02-20T09:49:26Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > I’m sure this gives somebody, somewhere, the impression that these paper sizes are a natural consequence of the structure of the universe… Well, the aspect ratio _is_ the [square root of 2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_2)… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/50 "2011-02-20T17:34:19Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I found the dimensions aesthetically pleasing. Well, [of course](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_ratio) you did… ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/51 "2011-02-20T21:00:37Z")
They are nice for spreadsheets ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/52 "2011-02-21T01:09:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, [of course](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_ratio) you did… Whoa! I don’t really get all that math, though, so I suppose I may have simply been picking up on this “silver ratio” subconsciously. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/53 "2011-02-22T22:53:26Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’ve been a lawyer since the last millennium, and I am pleased to say that legal size is falling out of favor. I still see it used in real estate deals. I try to avoid using it whenever possible. It’s inconvenient to have to have some on hand, to have some papers hanging out of the bottom of the file getting a lot more wear, etc. My experience exactly. It’s going out of style, but it’s still used occasionally. As far as I can tell, only in real estate deals. IANAL, but I do work in the document services department of a large (2,000+ lawyers) law firm. So I probably see more legal documents than most lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/54 "2011-02-23T05:49:41Z")
Huh. I thought converting A4 to letter (and vice versa) would be easy. Both of the discrepancies are within the usual margin range. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/55 "2011-02-23T19:13:27Z")
And only because I’ll never find another place on the boards to stick this in: Did you ever wonder why your ream (500 sheets) of 20 lb. paper didn’t weigh 20 pounds? It’s because the weight of the paper is taken from the _basis_ of the paper, in this case a 500 sheet load of 18 x 23 inch leafs. **That** weighs 20 pounds. When it’s trimmed down into a quarter of that size for finish you have a ream of 20 lb. office paper. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/56 "2011-02-23T19:52:18Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > And only because I’ll never find another place on the boards to stick this in: Did you ever wonder why your ream (500 sheets) of 20 lb. paper didn’t weigh 20 pounds? It’s because the weight of the paper is taken from the _basis_ of the paper, in this case a 500 sheet load of 18 x 23 inch leafs. **That** weighs 20 pounds. When it’s trimmed down into a quarter of that size for finish you have a ream of 20 lb. office paper. Right you are. And just to add to the confusion, the basis weight size is not the same for all kinds of paper. 20# bond is about the same thickness as 50# book (I forget the basis size for that). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/57 "2011-02-23T20:27:38Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > And only because I’ll never find another place on the boards to stick this in: Did you ever wonder why your ream (500 sheets) of 20 lb. paper didn’t weigh 20 pounds? It’s because the weight of the paper is taken from the _basis_ of the paper, in this case a 500 sheet load of 18 x 23 inch leafs. **That** weighs 20 pounds. When it’s trimmed down into a quarter of that size for finish you have a ream of 20 lb. office paper. Don’t you start with paper that’s 17x22, not 18x23, and then quarter it to get four 8.5x11 sheets? ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/58 "2011-02-23T21:50:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Don’t you start with paper that’s 17x22, not 18x23, and then quarter it to get four 8.5x11 sheets? You would if the sheets had finished edges. My guess is that even when I was working with paper (25+ years ago) production sizes were even larger, anyway. But as I understood it at the time basis sheets were rough-cut and then trimmed to final size, hence the 1/2 inch selvage loss around the edges. For all I know they use lasers today to trim to final size and have nearly zero waste, but like I said [del]I’m a geezer[/del] it’s been a while. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/59 "2011-02-24T07:16:21Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > You would if the sheets had finished edges. My guess is that even when I was working with paper (25+ years ago) production sizes were even larger, anyway. But as I understood it at the time basis sheets were rough-cut and then trimmed to final size, hence the 1/2 inch selvage loss around the edges. For all I know they use lasers today to trim to final size and have nearly zero waste, but like I said [del]I’m a geezer[/del] it’s been a while. Thank you. I’ve been wondering how the perfect dimensions of A4 et al. worked. I wondered why they wouldn’t have edges that had to be trimmed off, thus eschewing the one advantage they have. ---
**Author:** ![sandsman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@sandsman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandsman1)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/60 "2013-03-27T15:25:11Z")
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