# What's the deal with "legal" size paper? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622 "2011-02-16T20:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/61 "2013-03-27T15:53:59Z")
Seriously? For that inane quip you create an account and revive a zombie thread? ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/62 "2013-03-27T16:49:37Z")
> [@sandsman1](#): > > Who uses paper any more? Do you have an app for wiping your butt? Oh, and welcome to the board. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/63 "2013-03-27T17:17:50Z")
> [@sandsman1](#): > > Who uses paper any more? zombie or no it’s softer. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/64 "2013-03-27T17:19:41Z")
Papers? He don’t need no stinkin’ papers. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/65 "2013-03-27T17:55:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What exactly is the confusion? Do we also have to eat your favourite flavour of ice cream and wear clothes in your preferred style too? Europe. That means tracksuits, right? Seriously, I’d like to use A4 for everyday printing, but it’s very hard to find in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/66 "2013-03-27T22:00:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Seriously? For that inane quip you create an account and revive a zombie thread? So much has changed in 25 months. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/67 "2013-03-27T23:46:13Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Europe. That means tracksuits, right? > > Seriously, I’d like to use A4 for everyday printing, but it’s very hard to find in the United States. I have the opposite problem, I’d like US Letter paper for some printing I do at home but it is very difficult (and expensive) to get here. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/68 "2013-03-28T02:12:30Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Europe. That means tracksuits, right? > > Seriously, I’d like to use A4 for everyday printing, but it’s very hard to find in the United States. Easy enough: > **[Amazon.com : Hammermill A4 Paper, Fore Multipurpose 20 lb Printer Paper - 1 Ream...](https://www.amazon.com/Hammermill-Multipurpose-Bright-Sheets-103036R/dp/B00006L38M)** > > The Hammermill Paper 99.99% Jam-Free Guarantee: You will not experience more than one jam in 10,000 sheets using Hammermill copy paper on your high-speed digital printer or we will replace your Hammermill paper purchase. We test more than 13.5... [http://www.staples.com/HammerMill-Fore-MP-Premium-Multi-Function-Paper-A4-Size-Ream/product\_560565](http://www.staples.com/HammerMill-Fore-MP-Premium-Multi-Function-Paper-A4-Size-Ream/product_560565) [Hammermill Fore Multi Use Printer Copy Paper White A4 8 14 x 11 34 500 Sheets Per Ream 20 Lb 96 Brightness - Office Depot](http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/261782/Hammermill-Fore-Multipurpose-Paper-A4-8/) Now, my UK screenwriting acquaintances tell me that US letter paper is quite difficult to get overseas. Most submissions to US entities are done via PDF these days, so not as much of a problem as it used to be. > **[US Screenplay Presentation | Between Borders](https://betweenborders.com/wordsmithing/us-screenplay-presentation/)** (Yeah, I know that’s an Oz link, but it explains the problem quite nicely.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/69 "2013-03-28T03:00:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, [of course](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_ratio) you did… Good cite. A general one for this thread is here: > **[Paper size](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size)** > > Paper size refers to standardized dimensions for sheets of paper used globally in stationery, printing, and technical drawing. Most countries adhere to the ISO 216 standard, which includes the widely recognized A series (including A4 paper), defined by a consistent aspect ratio of √2. The system, first proposed in the 18th century and formalized in 1975, allows scaling between sizes without distortion. Regional variations exist, such as the North American paper sizes (e.g., Letter, Legal, and ... I also thought foolscap was a type of material. I also found interesting the Indian fried eggs. “Poached” means cooked with boiling or near boiling water. You can look it up. It has other meanings, but not associated with cooking, unless by some unique history the preparation comes from eggs poached from someone else’s property. Somewhere there’s a reason for this strange usage. ---
**Author:** ![joe362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/51bf81/32.png) [@joe362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joe362)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/70 "2017-01-10T23:45:41Z")
Legal size paper is alleged to have come about in the times of King Henry VIII. A large sized paper, foolscap, which was 17 by 22 inches, was cut in half for the use of lawyers. Lawyers appreciated the extra two inches, as they could now take more notes then on a standard letter size piece of paper. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Room](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_room/32/5069_2.png) [@Little\_Room](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Room)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/71 "2017-01-11T01:29:09Z")
> [@Ruby](#): > > We can only hope it becomes obsolete. It seems to be fairly common in my neck of the woods. I just refi’d my house and came home with an entire folder full of legal size documents. Now exactly where will I file those…? I must be where some people positively pride themselves on their old-timeyness, because I see them a lot. That stuff goes in the copier on “reduce” before it gets filed anywhere. > [@Rmstrjim](#): > > We use legal and ledger a fair bit at my engineering firm for printing out small runs of small sets of drawings. This is true - I’ve seen engineering plans and map exhibits on legal paper, especially when it’s something “linear”. I could see its usefulness for that. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/72 "2017-01-11T03:01:22Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > What you in the US refer to as “legal paper” is called “foolscap” in the British Commonwealth countries. This is not quite true. US legal paper is 8.5" x 14". Foolscap seems to be 8.5" x 13.5", although I think this has changed over time, since I see some references to 8" x 13" foolscap as well. [Wiki says](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolscap_folio) > [@](#): > > Foolscap folio (commonly contracted to foolscap or folio) is paper cut to the size of 8 1⁄2 × 13 1⁄2 inches (216 × 343 mm) (for “normal” writing paper, 13 × 8 in). I have no idea what distinction they’re trying to make with the scare quoted word “normal”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/73 "2017-01-11T06:20:12Z")
Love zombie threads… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/74 "2017-01-11T09:20:34Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > This is not quite true. US legal paper is 8.5" x 14". Foolscap seems to be 8.5" x 13.5", although I think this has changed over time, since I see some references to 8" x 13" foolscap as well. [url=[Foolscap folio - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foolscap_folio)] Yes, in my long life in various countries I’ve come across both US legal paper and foolscap paper – and US legal paper is significantly longer. I’m tempted to say that must be because US lawyers are more verbose, but it may just because their handwriting is larger. But the difference between A4 paper and US letter paper sizes is significant for those of us who need to read documents from a different paper-size universe. At best, you only need to shrink the document by 5% to print it out. At worst, all the formatting goes off: every line becomes two lines, because the last few characters don’t fit into the line, and every page becomes two pages, because the last few lines don’t fit onto the page. And in each case, it’s because the person originating the document added hard line breaks and/or hard page breaks, because that formatted nicely on their computer. [end of rant] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/75 "2017-01-11T16:10:07Z")
My understanding is that the extra length for legal paper is to make room for official seals. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/76 "2017-01-12T06:04:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My understanding is that the extra length for legal paper is to make room for official seals. And probably more pleasingly filled up and matched book style ledgers and folders . (you could copy down a list of entries from the ledger onto your matching height folio paper) Also, the more rectangular shape allowed bundles of papers to be stacked crosswise more easily… Bundle 1 goes left right, bundle 2 near to far… bundle 3 left right, bundle 4 near to far… There’s lots of possible and plausible reasons but correlation is not causation. Whats clear is that the process of standardisation was informal, the record shows there will be no definitive answer… guesses are all you get. In approx 1389 , Bologna government proclaimed a set of standards for paper sizes. However paper sizes were affected by technology (the various types of paper making methods, cutting tools, books, hand writing implements, printing presses ), and by taxation, and tradition… so there is no real way to know why they evolved and had to be different… why did there have to be legal and letter ? The thing is that the sizes always were not standardised precisely, so one companies could be another legal could be another’s royal. The sizes and ratios vary a bit over time, and its not possible to identify why they varied or whose sizes became locked in as “legal”. Hoover had the USA Government standardise on “government letter” for most of its paperwork, in use throughout - at least it was a start. But by Reagan , office photocopiers couldn’t do “government letter” and there was the demand to make copies… so Reagan stipulated the government use what standard Letter … and locked that in as the official size of letter. I take that to mean that the government used its own standards for ledgers and large forms and large print documents, (“wanted” posters and so on) and so in modern times, say 1500-s to 1930’s, the standards became more and more sloppy , and one government office could use a slightly different size to one on the floor above !, (and of course, across the state, country and oceans… ). Internationalisation meant that there were numerous sizes of letter and royal and legal and all that… the names didn’t assign to sizes ! (no more than one cafe’s “large coffee” is similar in size to another !) until technology required standardisation. Its just a guess that before photocopiers, there was no strong need for standardisation, and the Bologna stone wasn’t repeated until 1930’s with social security, income tax, ISO, ANSI, etc ---
**Author:** ![YoudNeverGuess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a587f6/32.png) [@YoudNeverGuess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoudNeverGuess)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/77 "2017-01-13T13:10:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I find yellow easier on the eyes also. In my youth, I would use 8.5x14 because 8.5x11 wasn’t available in yellow or at least not common. Yes. Music publishers often use off-white/ pale yellow(ish) paper too as white can be quite glaring and hard on the eyes under stage lights. ---
**Author:** ![IndigoWyrd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@IndigoWyrd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndigoWyrd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/78 "2019-07-11T20:52:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > More sensible? Your A4 paper is sentient? That’s amazing. Ours is just pulped wood. I take it you don’t get out much, or haven’t met many politicians. Pulped wood has a mental advantage over most of them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622/79 "2019-07-11T21:48:10Z")
> [@IndigoWyrd](#): > > I take it you don’t get out much, or haven’t met many politicians. Pulped wood has a mental advantage over most of them. **Moderator Note** **IndigoWyrd** , welcome to the Straight Dope. We don’t permit personal insults in most of our forums except the Pit, and we don’t permit political commentary in General Questions. We also prefer that old threads in General Questions only be bumped to provide new factual information. Since this does not, I’m closing it. Colibri General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-legal-size-paper/571622.md?page=3)