# What's the deal with sites that can make you a Baron, Earl, Lord or Viscount? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145 "2009-09-22T21:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/21 "2009-09-23T04:54:38Z")
Zonker bought himself a rather silly title (His Lordship the Viscount St. Austell-in-the-Moor Biggleswade-Brixham) in _Doonesbury_ awhile back, and IIRC it was never shown to be fraudulent. I thought that these title-selling services, although distasteful, were legit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/22 "2009-09-23T05:01:26Z")
> [@Peanuthead](#): > > I can see it now: Passenger at international customs checkpoint. Mohammed Akbar, Duke of York. 😃 > > or maybe even Mohammed Akbar, Duke of York, Esq. 😛 While the Duke of York is Christian (and in fact, Christian is [one of] his middle name[s]), there are currently four Muslim peers, albeit life peers rather than hereditary ones. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/23 "2009-09-23T09:49:42Z")
The Lord of the Manor thing has been around some time, personally I always thought it was tied to a property, but everything is securitized these days. However I remember a Maigret story in which a guy did sell his title, which you can do under Roman based laws, and only Gregory Maundy (and a few others) did in the UK 🙂 That could make the basis of an interesting … opportunity 🙂 Simenon probably was not far off the truth ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/24 "2009-09-23T11:09:30Z")
> [@kitemaker\_chuck](#): > > Put them all together, and you could refer to yourself as something like the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD. No, you couldn’t. **I** am the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/25 "2009-09-23T11:38:38Z")
I ain’t no lawyer, but I’ve had some minor passport problems because I go by my middle name “Dex” instead of my first initials “C K.” Some passport clerks are unable to make the connection, when my ticket says “Dexter Haven,” and my passport says “C K Dexter Haven”, and I’ve had some minor slow-ups. It’s been a nuisance, and I’m actually going to get a new passport (US) under just “Dexter Haven” to avoid problems in future. So, my guess would be that you can put any name on your passport that you legally use, but it jolly well better match everything else. Thus, if you change your name to “Robin, Earl of Lockesly”, you’d better be sure all your other IDs match. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/26 "2009-09-23T12:19:19Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > No, you couldn’t. **I** am the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD! :mad: No, **I** am the Earl or Alpha Centauri, PhD! /sits, waiting for the cue for the real Earl of Alpha Centauri to stand up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/27 "2009-09-23T13:04:34Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I don’t know know why you’re hung up on the passport; you can get any name on a passport as long as it’s a name you can prove you use and are known by. That’s not true in the UK. The passport has to bear the legal name. You can get any name on a passport, but only if you legally change your name by deed poll. That’s why I can’t understand how these sites are claiming you can become ‘Lord Adam Jones’ on a passport, unless they’re either lying or getting you to change your name by deed poll to ‘Mr. Lord Adam Jones’. > [@](#): > > [Change your name or personal details on your passport: How it works - GOV.UK](http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Passports/Howtochangethenameonyourpassport/DG_174165) > > “The name on your passport should always match your legal name. … If you recently changed your name or plan to do so in the near future, you will have to change the name on your passport. If you don’t, you may be unable to travel abroad.” ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/28 "2009-09-23T14:09:48Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > No, **I** am the Earl or Alpha Centauri, PhD! > > /sits, waiting for the cue for the real Earl of Alpha Centauri to stand up. _I’m_ the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD, and so’s my wife! ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/29 "2009-09-23T14:43:38Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > That’s not true in the UK. The passport has to bear the legal name. You can get any name on a passport, but only if you legally change your name by deed poll. That’s why I can’t understand how these sites are claiming you can become ‘Lord Adam Jones’ on a passport, unless they’re either lying or getting you to change your name by deed poll to ‘Mr. Lord Adam Jones’. You’re still hung up on an inconsequential point, and you actually posted the answer to your own question. Apparently, however, you didn’t realize it. Step 1: I “sell” you the “right” to be called Baron of Wyndingham. (Note: All I’m really doing is selling you a deed poll completion service.) Step 2: I complete a deed poll that changes your name to Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham Step 3: You sign the deed poll in the presence of 2 witnesses Step 4: You send a copy of the deed poll to the Home Office with a new passport application You seem to have two misconceptions: that a deed poll is a complicated process and that the Home Office will reject the new name. According to [Her Majesty’s Court Service](http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/9805.htm#deed_polls): > [@](#): > > you can officially change any part or all of your name. For example, you can change your forenames, surname (or both), **add names** , remove names, change the spelling of your names or rearrange your existing names. You can change your name by Deed Poll as often as you want, at any time and for any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes. Contrary to popular belief, there is no central register of name changes in the United Kingdom. (emphasis added) You do not need a court to give you permission to make “Wyndingham” your new last name, and “Baron” & “of” new middle names, which is what you’re doing. Accordingto the Identity & Passport Service, you can get a new passport after a name change simply by applying for a new passport. They don’t “vet” your new name, as long as it’s legal. After signing the deed poll, your legal name is Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham, so you get the passport. You have not purchased an actual title in the Peerage(s) of England, Scotland, Ireland, or the United Kingdom, all you’ve done is change your name. As long as you don’t try to convince anyone you’re really a peer, you’re fine, if a bit foolish. That missing comma is a small, but important, distinction. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/30 "2009-09-23T15:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=paperbackwriter] You’re still hung up on an inconsequential point, and you actually posted the answer to your own question. Apparently, however, you didn’t realize it. Step 1: I “sell” you the “right” to be called Baron of Wyndingham. (Note: All I’m really doing is selling you a deed poll completion service.) Step 2: I complete a deed poll that changes your name to Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham Step 3: You sign the deed poll in the presence of 2 witnesses Step 4: You send a copy of the deed poll to the Home Office with a new passport application. [/QUOTE] With the added complication that the companies cited in the OP have an extra refinement to the scam, in that they will sell you bits of land as well. Which could conceivably have actual manorial lordships attached to them. But which I rather suspect don’t. So what they’re doing is _pretending_ to engage in a form of trade which, even when done legitimately, is little more than a con. As for ‘genuine’ manorial lordships on passports, this is what the Home Office says on the subject in its (badly copyedited) [2008 consultation paper on identity cards](http://www.wcva.org.uk/images_client/policy_consultant/Identity%20Cards%20Act%20Nov%2008.pdf) (pdf). > [@](#): > > _2.56 The regulations make provision for titles of nobility that will be shown on the [proposed identity] card (regulation 1(2) and 4). Other titles, such as professional titles or manorial titles will not be shown. At present such titles may be shown in UK passports as observations, today but it is intended to review this practice so that passports in future would also only reflect the titles listed in this regulation._ In other words, you can include a manorial title on a UK passport, but only as an observation in the form of ‘Also known as…’. Which is utterly meaningless as you can include any name you want in that way. And even that loophole is probably going to be removed. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/31 "2009-09-23T15:28:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Zonker bought himself a rather silly title (His Lordship the Viscount St. Austell-in-the-Moor Biggleswade-Brixham) in _Doonesbury_ awhile back, and IIRC it was never shown to be fraudulent. I thought that these title-selling services, although distasteful, were legit. A sold title was also a plot point in **Tess of the D’Urbervilles** and **To the Manor Born**. Or were these somehow different? ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/32 "2009-09-23T16:19:52Z")
_Tess of the d’Urbervilles_ was written in 1891, well before the [Honours (Prevention of Abuses) Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honours_(Prevention_of_Abuses)_Act_1925) of 1925. It was that law which made the sale of peerages or any other honours illegal. Before that, well, [there was a bit of a problem with some unscrupulous characters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maundy_Gregory#Selling_of_peerages). The [text of the law](http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1077577) only makes it a misdemeanor to accept gifts or favors to obtain a _grant_ of a title or dignity. This is therefore about the government granting _new_ titles. I’m not sure what this would mean if, say, the Duke of Norfolk tried selling off a subsidiary title like Baron Clun. It is my understanding this can’t happen, either, but not due to statute. A title doesn’t belong to the holder as property. For instance if a title is lost or abandonded for one reason or another (e.g., abeyance or attainment), it goes back to the monarch. Some titles have been created multiple times this way. For example, the title of [Baron Beauchamp](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Beauchamp) has been created no less than seven times for three distinct families. I’m not absolutely sure about this, however. In _To the Manor Born_, the thing sold was a manor house, not a peerage. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/33 "2009-09-23T21:15:50Z")
I thought at least some titles could be bought. Michael Moore did a segment on TV Nation in which he bought a title and visited the township he was lord of. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/34 "2009-09-23T21:27:38Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I know you can use a fake name for many reasons but can you use one on a passport? I would be suprised if you can. You can, if it is the name you habitually use. You have to get two people who swear they knew you under both names. When I got my first passport, 45 years ago, the only two people who knew me under both names were my parents since the name on my birth certificate was NEVER used for any other purpose. Since then, I have simply turned in my passport and gotten a new one under the same name. I don’t know if it is still so easy and if I were to get my first passport today, there would literally be no one who knew me under both names. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/35 "2009-09-23T23:17:39Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I thought at least some titles could be bought. Michael Moore did a segment on TV Nation in which he bought a title and visited the township he was lord of. That was one of the [Lord of the Manor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_manor) not-a-title-at-all pseudo-titles mentioned above. There was a vogue in the 80’s and 90’s for Americans to buy these, but they are essentially meaningless: > [@](#): > > According to John Martin Robinson, Maltravers Herald Extraordinary and co-author of The Oxford Guide to Heraldry, ”Lordship of this or that manor is no more a title than Landlord of The Dog and Duck.” According to wiki’s [list of TV Nation episodes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_TV_Nation_episodes), Moore bought the lordship of the manor of [Foleshill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foleshill). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/36 "2009-09-23T23:19:09Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > …In _To the Manor Born_, the thing sold was a manor house, not a peerage. Richard DeVere did actually become the Lord of the Manor when he bought Grantleigh. Audrey was constantly reminding him of his duties as Lord of the Manor. He had some powers regarding the local church and the railway. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/37 "2009-09-23T23:33:16Z")
Yes, but, again, being a Lord of the Manor [is not a title in any peerage system](http://www.faketitles.com/html/the_manorial_society.html). A few surviving historical ones have some odd privileges and duties, but “lordship” [in this case means “property ownership.”](http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/faqs/knighthood-honours/buy-british-title) (Almost) Nothing more. Straight from the horses mouth, that of the British Embassy to the US: > [@](#): > > A manorial lordship is not an aristocratic title, but a semi-extinct form of landed property. Lordship in this sense is a synonym for ownership. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/38 "2009-09-24T08:38:20Z")
> [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > _I’m_ the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD, and so’s my wife! I wonder how many dopers have recently applied to change their SDMB handle to **Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD**? Not me. If I were to change my handle, it’d probably be to **Baron of Glenelg** or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/39 "2009-09-24T09:14:39Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > You’re still hung up on an inconsequential point, and you actually posted the answer to your own question. Apparently, however, you didn’t realize it. > Step 1: I “sell” you the “right” to be called Baron of Wyndingham. (Note: All I’m really doing is selling you a deed poll completion service.) > Step 2: I complete a deed poll that changes your name to Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham > Step 3: You sign the deed poll in the presence of 2 witnesses > Step 4: You send a copy of the deed poll to the Home Office with a new passport application > > You seem to have two misconceptions: that a deed poll is a complicated process and that the Home Office will reject the new name. According to [Her Majesty’s Court Service](http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/9805.htm#deed_polls): (emphasis added) You do not need a court to give you permission to make “Wyndingham” your new last name, and “Baron” & “of” new middle names, which is what you’re doing. > > Accordingto the Identity & Passport Service, you can get a new passport after a name change simply by applying for a new passport. They don’t “vet” your new name, as long as it’s legal. After signing the deed poll, your legal name is Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham, so you get the passport. > > You have not purchased an actual title in the Peerage(s) of England, Scotland, Ireland, or the United Kingdom, all you’ve done is change your name. As long as you don’t try to convince anyone you’re really a peer, you’re fine, if a bit foolish. That missing comma is a small, but important, distinction. Except that according to [the UK Deed Poll Service,](http://www.ukdps.co.uk/AreThereAnyRestrictionsOnNames.html) you can’t do that. > [@](#): > > We will not accept an application for a name that: > does not include at least one forename and one surname; > is impossible to pronounce; > includes numbers or symbols; > includes punctuation marks - although you can have a hyphen to link forenames or surnames (for example, if you want a double-barrelled surname) and an apostrophe in the case of surnames like O’Brien; > we consider vulgar, offensive, blasphemous or unsuitable; > **may result in others believing you have a conferred or inherited honour, title, rank or academic award, for example, a change of first name to Sir, Lord, Laird, Lady, Prince, Princess, Viscount, Baron, Baroness, General, Captain, Professor or Doctor etc.** > [@](#): > > 2.3 Nobility titles and honours > If you require your title to be changed to a title of nobility or honour e.g. Lord, Lady or Sir, the title must relate to an honour granted by the Sovereign of the United Kingdom and you must be entitled to use the title in accordance with the honour’s traditional style of usage. > > Please note, we only recognise genuine British titles. If you have purchased a title purporting to allow you to use a title such as Sir, Lord, Laird or Lady, we will not recognise such a title because you cannot purchase a genuine British title. > > In all cases, if we do not accept your desired title or we do not receive documentary evidence of an approved title, your Deed Poll will be issued showing your name change only. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/40 "2009-09-24T10:25:34Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Except that according to [the UK Deed Poll Service,](http://www.ukdps.co.uk/AreThereAnyRestrictionsOnNames.html) you can’t do that. Except I guess that most people buying these titles are not UK citizens and that other countries (eg US) DO allow you to put “Lord” or “Baron” as part of the name when you chance your name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145.md?page=3)