# What's the deal with sites that can make you a Baron, Earl, Lord or Viscount? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145 "2009-09-22T21:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/41 "2009-09-24T11:23:52Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Except I guess that most people buying these titles are not UK citizens and that other countries (eg US) DO allow you to put “Lord” or “Baron” as part of the name when you chance your name. They wouldn’t be changing their name in the UK by deed poll, though, would they? How this works in the UK is the question. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/42 "2009-09-24T12:35:46Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > They wouldn’t be changing their name in the UK by deed poll, though, would they? How this works in the UK is the question. Well lets chip in and purchase “Sir Cecil of Dope” and see what paperwork they send. I would bet they have lots of disclaimers for UK citizens due to the reasons listed above and that their main target market is Non UK citizens who can change the name to include a title. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/43 "2009-09-24T12:56:04Z")
So does this mean that Michael Flatley isn’t really The Lord of the Dance? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/44 "2009-09-24T13:41:51Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > So does this mean that Michael Flatley isn’t really The Lord of the Dance? [Nope](http://www.stainer.co.uk/lotd.html) – in fact, in some circles the idea would be considered mildly blasphemous. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/45 "2009-09-24T14:38:18Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Except that according to [the UK Deed Poll Service,](http://www.ukdps.co.uk/AreThereAnyRestrictionsOnNames.html) you can’t do that. Just to point out that **the** UK Deed Poll Service is in fact **a** UK Deed Poll Service. There seem to be numerous companies offering to help people change their names, some of which are by no means as specific regarding what is acceptable and what is not. On the other hand, I can’t find a source that legally and unequivocally defines what can and can’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/46 "2009-09-24T16:25:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Earl of Bradford has gotten himself all worked up about the sale of false titles online, and has created a website debunking the myths and blowing the whistle on these false title sites, and you can find his website doing so here: > > [http://www.faketitles.com/](http://www.faketitles.com/) FYI, do NOT mistake that for [faketities.com](http://faketities.com)… Those l’s and i’s sure are confusing! ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/47 "2009-09-24T17:20:29Z")
A slight sidetrack, where does the term Esquire fit into all this? Does Britain have this “title” as well, who can hold it? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/48 "2009-09-24T21:39:09Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A slight sidetrack, where does the term Esquire fit into all this? Does Britain have this “title” as well, who can hold it? [You really don’t want to know.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire) American usage virtually limits it to lawyers (except judges, whose “the Honorable” superseds the “Esq.”). I had learned in English class nearly a half century ago that it was proper to use “Esq.” after the names of retired "Honorable"s (judges, governors, cabinet secretaries, etc.) – but that seems to have fallen out of practice, if indeed it ever was common outside my teacher’s mind. British “proper” usage is positively arcane. See the Wikipedia article linked above. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/49 "2009-09-24T22:06:00Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > You’re still hung up on an inconsequential point, and you actually posted the answer to your own question. Apparently, however, you didn’t realize it. > Step 1: I “sell” you the “right” to be called Baron of Wyndingham. (Note: All I’m really doing is selling you a deed poll completion service.) > Step 2: I complete a deed poll that changes your name to Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham > Step 3: You sign the deed poll in the presence of 2 witnesses > Step 4: You send a copy of the deed poll to the Home Office with a new passport application > > You seem to have two misconceptions: that a deed poll is a complicated process and that the Home Office will reject the new name. According to [Her Majesty’s Court Service](http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/9805.htm#deed_polls): (emphasis added) You do not need a court to give you permission to make “Wyndingham” your new last name, and “Baron” & “of” new middle names, which is what you’re doing. > > Accordingto the Identity & Passport Service, you can get a new passport after a name change simply by applying for a new passport. They don’t “vet” your new name, as long as it’s legal. After signing the deed poll, your legal name is Great Philosopher Baron of Wyndingham, so you get the passport. > > You have not purchased an actual title in the Peerage(s) of England, Scotland, Ireland, or the United Kingdom, all you’ve done is change your name. As long as you don’t try to convince anyone you’re really a peer, you’re fine, if a bit foolish. That missing comma is a small, but important, distinction. I didn’t answer my own question and I didn’t have any misconceptions, what I did was suggest two possible answers for why the sites claim you can put your title on a passport: one is that the sites are simply lying and customers can’t really put the title on their passports; the other is the answer you’ve just repeated, that the site basically just tells you how to legally change your name via deed poll. **WotNot’s** useful post seems to suggest that the UK Home Office wouldn’t allow the latter - ie. wouldn’t let me change my name to Mr. “Lord Adam Jones” - because it’s deceptive. And while someone pointed out that this would probably only be true for people trying to change their names in the UK and not in other countries, the Elite Titles website is a UK-registered site and most of its “satisfied customer” comments are from people in the UK. I have a feeling the site is just lying that I’d be able to get a title like ‘Earl’ or ‘Baron’ on my passport… ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/50 "2009-09-24T22:12:04Z")
Also keep in mind that legit titles can come with there own problems. Witness our old pal Conrad Black. ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/51 "2009-09-24T22:15:35Z")
The US will not allow one to put an honorific title on a passport. Even if it’s legit. Surly Chick (who spent four years issuing US passports) ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/52 "2009-09-24T22:19:33Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > Just as a note, a quote I liked from that site: “I will put it very simply: You cannot purchase a genuine British title.” That’s certainly been [up for debate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_for_honours). 😉 You truncated the quote, leaving out a very important bit. In full, the sentence reads: I will put it very simply, “You cannot purchase a genuine British title, **with one exception, the feudal title of a Scottish baron** ; and certainly cannot buy a peerage title”. He does not make it clear why this exception exists, nor is it obvious why the same rule would not apply to Irish feudal lordships. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/53 "2009-09-25T03:15:41Z")
> [@Chez\_Guevara](#): > > Just to point out that **the** UK Deed Poll Service is in fact **a** UK Deed Poll Service. There seem to be numerous companies offering to help people change their names, some of which are by no means as specific regarding what is acceptable and what is not. > > On the other hand, I can’t find a source that legally and unequivocally defines what can and can’t be done. That’s because names in the UK are not a matter of law, but a matter of fact. Your name is what people call you. If everybody calls you “John Smith”, then that’s your name, even though your name at birth, as recorded on your birth certificate, may have been “Michael Jones”. How do you change your name from “Michael Jones” to “John Smith”? By using the name “John Smith”, and getting other people to use it as your name. Can you have more than one name at the same time? Yes. If some people call you “John” and others call you “Michael”, and both these names refer to you, then they are both your names. It’s not all unusual for a married woman to have two names, e.g. Mary Husbandsname for social purposes but Mary Fathersname for professional purposes. Do you need a deed poll to change your name? No. So why does anybody execute and register a deed poll? Because it’s _evidence_ that you have changed your name. If you want to persuade the bank or the passport office or whoever that your name is “John Smith” even though it says “Michael Jones” on your birth certificate, you need some evidence that you are called “John Smith”, and a deed poll declaring this to be the case is standard evidence that most institutions will accept. But note that the Deed Poll doesn’t itself change your name; it merely shows that your name has changed. So, if I get my friends and family to call me “Earl Blackacre”, and then execute a deed poll evidencing that my name is now “Earl Blackacre”, on what basis would the authorities refuse tor register it? I am in fact called “Earl Blackacre”. If I recall correctly, the authorities can refuse tor register it if they think I am calling myself “Earl Blackacre” for fraudulent purposes, or to commit some other crime. And if, instead of “Earl Blackacre”, I seek to change my name to “John, Duke of Westminster”, there are two grounds for concern. First, there is already a person with the title “Duke of Westminster” of whom some of the public are likely to be aware; under my new name I am so likely to be confused with him as to raise at least the suspicion that this confusion is my object. Secondly, and more generally, it’s a highly unusual form of name and is so prone to being mistaken for a title and, again, this raises the suspicion that I hope to be mistaken for one of my betters, even if not a specific one. And, in either case, there might be the further suspicion that I intend by this confusion to defraud people. Or, alternatively, that I am claiming an honour or title which the crown has not awarded me (Yes, this is an offence in the UK, even if not often prosecuted). So, the more your new name _looks_ like a title, the more likely you are to have trouble registering a deed poll recording the change. But if you can satisfy the authorities that you are in fact called “Earl Blackacre” or “John, Duke of Westminster”, and that you have not assumed this name for a fraudulent or criminal purpose, they should eventually register it. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/54 "2009-09-25T04:11:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So, the more your new name _looks_ like a title, the more likely you are to have trouble registering a deed poll recording the change. But if you can satisfy the authorities that you are in fact called “Earl Blackacre” or “John, Duke of Westminster”, and that you have not assumed this name for a fraudulent or criminal purpose, they should eventually register it. Forgive me for being dense, but which specific authority, or authorities, need to be satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/55 "2009-09-25T06:00:28Z")
You make a Deed Poll simply by drawing up and executing the necessary document. Having made it, you can register it. In England and Wales, you register it with the High Court. I assume, but don’t know, that in Scotland you register it with the Court of Session . You don’t have to register it, but if you have registered then you can get certified copies (as in, copies with court stamps on them) which may increase their value when it comes to satisfying bank clerks, etc, that you have indeed “legally” changed your name. Your change of name will also be the subject of a notice in the _London Gazette_, an official newspaper that consists entirely of legal and parliamentary notices. You can flourish a copy of this to impress people as well. It’s at the point of registration that I think you _might_ encounter difficulty from a court official who thinks your purported name-change is objectionable. Uou can, of course, avoid the problem by not registering the Deed Poll. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/56 "2009-09-25T12:30:38Z")
> [@kitemaker\_chuck](#): > > Put them all together, and you could refer to yourself as something like the Earl of Alpha Centauri, PhD. And thus I’ve found out what I want for Christmas. I might even add “Warlord of the 83rd Dimension, Nemesis of Zur.” ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/57 "2009-09-25T15:58:38Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > And thus I’ve found out what I want for Christmas. I might even add “Warlord of the 83rd Dimension, Nemesis of Zur.” Ah yes, here comes yet another attack from yet another dimension. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145/58 "2009-09-25T16:20:26Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > You truncated the quote, leaving out a very important bit. In full, the sentence reads: > I will put it very simply, “You cannot purchase a genuine British title, **with one exception, the feudal title of a Scottish baron** ; and certainly cannot buy a peerage title”. > > He does not make it clear why this exception exists, nor is it obvious why the same rule would not apply to Irish feudal lordships. Would buying the feudal title in Scotland allow you to have a tartan registered with Lord Lyon, King of Arms? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-sites-that-can-make-you-a-baron-earl-lord-or-viscount/511145.md?page=2)