# What's the deal with SWTOR anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 31, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803 "2011-08-31T23:43:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/41 "2011-09-06T16:42:49Z")
I played in the Star Wars Galaxies beta from the second phase on. It was a very innovative game. That was it’s first big problem–it was too innovative for a mass-market, mass-appeal MMO. The second big problem was that the publisher Sony pushed it out the door at least 12-18 months before it was ready. I really like what Raph Koster was trying to do, but it was too much and not complete. When the game went live, I did not subscribe. I was not willing to pay to beta test. In retrospect, I think I made the right decision. Final Fantasy XIV seems to be following a similar trajectory. Some innovative ideas, poorly and incompletely executed. Players say they want new and better MMOs, but that’s difficult for developers and risky for publishers. Which is why we see games that are iterative improvements over previous games. I can’t comment on Star Wars: The Old Republic other than to say I’ve been in the beta since June and I have preordered. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/42 "2011-09-06T16:47:47Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I really like what Raph Koster was trying to do, but it was too much and not complete. Yeah, I want to like Koster. Ultima Online was the first great MMO, and the only game that’s come close to being its spiritual successor is EVE Online. I wanted SWG to follow in its footsteps, and for a while in beta it sounded like it would, but various bad decisions hamstrung it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/43 "2011-09-06T17:46:14Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] I can’t comment on Star Wars: The Old Republic other than to say I’ve been in the beta since June and I have preordered. [/QUOTE] Does saying publicly whether or not you enjoyed the game prohibited by the NDA? (I have never signed up for beta testing.) Since you have pre-ordered, may we assume that you think it will be an enjoyable game? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/44 "2011-09-06T19:58:45Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Does saying publicly whether or not you enjoyed the game prohibited by the NDA? > > (I have never signed up for beta testing.) > > Since you have pre-ordered, may we assume that you think it will be an enjoyable game? I don’t think I can even acknowledge the existence of an NDA. :rolleyes: So, yeah, I can’t say anything more than what I already did. I’m not comfortable saying as much as **Teufelblitz** has. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/45 "2011-09-06T20:19:43Z")
Yeah, actually even saying you are in the beta violates the NDA. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/46 "2011-09-07T00:12:25Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This is what you are going to get from SWTOR: hub based questing (kill 10 of this monsters, collect 8 of this thingies, go here and click on this thing, follow this guy around and protect him, congrats now go see this guy on the next hub/zone and do the same things again). Battle grounds you need to grind for pvp gear while being dominated by geared players, regular dungeons where you can gear up so you can do hard dungeons where you can gear up so you can raid a zone that lets you gear up so you can raid the next one. Reputation grinding, daily quests, node farming for crafting. etc etc etc, if you are ready to quit WoW you are already sick of everything that SWTOR is based around. What somebody needs to figure out how to do is create an MMO that isn’t based around the “gear grind”. It seems to me that the “gear grind” is especially out of place in a science fiction setting in general, and the SW setting in particular. The whole “find the powerful magic weapon/artifact/armor” is a meme that was rooted in “medieval fantasy” for centuries before Gary Gygax and … that other guy … put it into game form with D&D. It hasn’t been a characteristic of SF, at least in my experience. When the heroes in Star Wars blew up the Death Star, they got medals and promotions, not better blasters and lightsabers. Okay, Luke got his own X-Wing, but it’s pretty well-established that the Rebels were using mostly off-the-shelf, commercially-available gear. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I believe it. Of course, I really thught WoW wasn’t going to take off like it did. But they opened that game up for a **much wider array of computers** and gamer-styles than SWTOR appears to be heading towards. And as a Mac user, I’m sadly pretty much stuck with WoW. The only other Mac-compatible MMOs I’ve found have been pretty crappy (Java-based, terrible, unintuitive movement) and/or aimed at children. I thought I’d heard from a few sources that EverQuest was Mac-compatible, but I haven’t found any confirmation of that on the EQ web site. No indication on the SW:TOR site that it will have a Mac version. You’d think that with the massive amount of money going into developing SW:TOR, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to spend a bit more to add a Mac version. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/47 "2011-09-07T16:48:45Z")
City of Heroes has a Mac client. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/48 "2011-09-07T17:09:11Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > What somebody needs to figure out how to do is create an MMO that isn’t based around the “gear grind”. It’ll be fascinating if that ever happens, but right now gear and level grinding (and by extension epeen measurement) are what keep people playing MMOs for months and years. Sad but true. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that the “gear grind” is especially out of place in a science fiction setting in general, and the SW setting in particular. For SW, maybe, but I’ve been playing Borderlands lately, and the gear grind works pretty well there. Nothing like finding a sniper rifle with twice the power of the one I’ve been carrying around. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/49 "2011-09-07T17:28:22Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > City of Heroes has a Mac client. Ooo, sweet! I may have to check that out. Looks like my machine meets the requirements, though I’m uncertain about the video card recommendation - the brand/model number “or higher”. Guess I’d need to study ATI’s product list to determine if my card is “or higher” than what’s listed. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/50 "2011-09-07T17:41:42Z")
There’s also A Tale in the Desert, which is interesting, albeit odd. Pure crafting, no combat whatsoever (though some of the crafting minigames are much more skill-intensive than the normal WoW click click click). I ended up giving up on it after a while because you need a block of two hours or more uninterrupted to have an enjoyable period of gameplay in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/51 "2011-09-07T17:53:45Z")
Thanks for all the information. Sorry I haven’t posted back, I was on vacation! Looks like I’ll be staying put for the time being. I’ll swap games if it starts to outpace wow’s momentum, though. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/52 "2011-09-07T19:00:02Z")
It looks like it could be a fun diversion for a few months. I doubt I’d be playing it for a long time, though. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/53 "2011-09-08T16:42:48Z")
> [@sohvan](#): > > It looks like it could be a fun diversion for a few months. I doubt I’d be playing it for a long time, though. I know a lot of people who play games like this, but I don’t do that anymore. It’s just too expensive. That’s why I don’t do console gaming, either. The next great game (only $59.95!) might take a month at most to beat. Then you have to buy another game, and the next console when it comes out. blah! One MMO is all I have the mental resources to invest in. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/54 "2011-09-13T12:12:07Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Ooo, sweet! I may have to check that out. Looks like my machine meets the requirements, though I’m uncertain about the video card recommendation - the brand/model number “or higher”. Guess I’d need to study ATI’s product list to determine if my card is “or higher” than what’s listed. You’re better off just using [Passmark](http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php). You can sort by rank (lower is better) or score (higher is better) by pressing the little arrows to the right of each column title. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/55 "2011-09-13T16:30:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’re better off just using [Passmark](http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php). You can sort by rank (lower is better) or score (higher is better) by pressing the little arrows to the right of each column title. I ended up doing it the easy way: install the game and try it out. Can’t go wrong fo $9.99. I’ll see how it works today. I spent entirely too long last night on character creation and ended up in the “must … sleep … now” zone. But so far, so good. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/56 "2011-09-13T17:23:47Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I ended up doing it the easy way: install the game and try it out. Can’t go wrong fo $9.99. I’ll see how it works today. I spent entirely too long last night on character creation and ended up in the “must … sleep … now” zone. > > But so far, so good. And wouldn’t you know it, I try to log into the game this morning and discover all the servers are down. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/57 "2011-09-13T17:43:05Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > And wouldn’t you know it, I try to log into the game this morning and discover all the servers are down. I think City of Heroes is doing some huge upgrade/patch. Check the CoH thread. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/58 "2011-09-18T02:52:02Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > What somebody needs to figure out how to do is create an MMO that isn’t based around the “gear grind”. It seems to me that the “gear grind” is especially out of place in a science fiction setting in general, and the SW setting in particular. The whole “find the powerful magic weapon/artifact/armor” is a meme that was rooted in “medieval fantasy” for centuries before Gary Gygax and … that other guy … put it into game form with D&D. It hasn’t been a characteristic of SF, at least in my experience. When the heroes in Star Wars blew up the Death Star, they got medals and promotions, not better blasters and lightsabers. Okay, Luke got his own X-Wing, but it’s pretty well-established that the Rebels were using mostly off-the-shelf, commercially-available gear. The thing is, how do you keep people around without including grinds? If Blizzard can’t put in a new top-tier raid every month to satisfy the raiders, what are they going to do for the non-raiders? That’s a big problem with WoW, the balance between the hardcore players and the casuals. What can they do quickly to feed non-grindy content to satisfy everyone? The grind is there because otherwise everyone would blow through new content for a week and then have nothing new. Kinda of like a parent, ha ha. No you can’t eat all of your Halloween candy at once, then you’ll have nothing! ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/59 "2011-09-18T06:13:58Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > The thing is, how do you keep people around without including grinds? If Blizzard can’t put in a new top-tier raid every month to satisfy the raiders, what are they going to do for the non-raiders? That’s a big problem with WoW, the balance between the hardcore players and the casuals. What can they do quickly to feed non-grindy content to satisfy everyone? The grind is there because otherwise everyone would blow through new content for a week and then have nothing new. Kinda of like a parent, ha ha. No you can’t eat all of your Halloween candy at once, then you’ll have nothing! Well, aside from the philosophical “no gear grind”, they could at least have been creative with it, instead of new “gear” you can get “promotions” to a certain “office”, of course, within each “agency” you can only be in one “office” at a time. This translates to “you get gear which goes in a certain slot, you can only have one piece of gear in a slot at a time.” It’d be silly, but it’d fit the setting better, probably (though it would take rather a lot of handwaving to explain exactly how being the War Chairman makes you better at shooting things). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803/60 "2011-09-30T02:17:08Z")
Um… did anybody else just get an odd email asking you to give feedback for being a tester? Because I never received any word that I was accepted to test the game, and I got an odd survey. Of course, the site is experiencing too high of traffic so I can’t check my account either. Just making sure it’s a rogue email and I didn’t miss and email somewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-swtor-anyway/594803.md?page=4)