# What's the deal with various "Jesus didn't really die on the cross" theories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962 "2004-09-10T21:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962/101 "2004-09-19T20:47:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, could they not have said “he threatened to destroy the Temple of Yxxx”? The Gospels don’t say that, nor do they connect a threat to the Temple to a charge of blasphemy. > [@](#): > > Or could he also not have said “I am the Son of Yxxx”? > > The Apostles were all jewish, remember, and in the OT they never say the name, either. ( **Mark 14:61-63** ) Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ,[6] the Son of the Blessed One?” 62"I am," said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. (The Greek used here is "_ho nios tou eulogetou_, literally, "the son of the blessed’) ( **Matthew 26:63** ) The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[5] the Son of God.” (to which Jesus replies, “_Legei auto_,” “you say so yourself”) ( **Luke 22:70** ) They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You are right in saying I am.” [actually, _“Ho de pros autous ephe humeis legete oti ego eimi”_ “It is yourselves who say that I am.”] Ana examination of all three of these verses tells us that it is the Priests, not Jesus, who verbalize the phrase “son of God.” The text we have quotes them in Greek (_Nios tou Theou_) so we don’t know what the Aramaic was precisely, but the known Aramaic phrase for “Son of God” is _bar-Dalaha_. The Hebrew phrase from scripture is _ben-Eloihim._ I think it’s safe to say that the Priests used one of these constructions rather than verbalizing the Tetragammaton. Even if they had, it would have been _their_ blasphemy not Jesus’. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962/102 "2004-09-19T21:59:40Z")
Re Blasphemy Additionally, a Jew speaking the ineffable Name is not something minor to be eluded to or mentioned eliptically. This not some faux pas, to be covered by a timely joke from the hostess. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962/103 "2004-09-20T05:32:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Gospels don’t say that, nor do they connect a threat to the Temple to a charge of blasphemy. > > ( **Mark 14:61-63** ) > Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ,[6] the Son of the Blessed One?” > 62"I am," said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” > 63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. > (The Greek used here is "_ho nios tou eulogetou_, literally, "the son of the blessed’) > > ( **Matthew 26:63** ) > The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[5] the Son of God.” > (to which Jesus replies, “_Legei auto_,” “you say so yourself”) > > ( **Luke 22:70** ) > They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” > He replied, “You are right in saying I am.” [actually, _“Ho de pros autous ephe humeis legete oti ego eimi”_ “It is yourselves who say that I am.”] Umm, you do realize the the writers of the Bible go to great lengths to come up with other phrases & terms that can be used instead of “the Name” (since I hope Zev will come back here and post, I am not going to risk offending him by spelling out the name, although it doesn’t bother me in the least. But if he has any preferences on this, in us posting, please Zev- let me know. Usually I don’t care, but since I invited you here and ask for your wisdom, I am going to try and be polite.) And- the preists CAN use “the name”- they’re _preists_ . That’s the whole point. They can look upon the Ark, etc. Or is it just the High Preist? Zev? ;j It seems quite possible that the Preists used the term 'the blessed" whereas Jesus (who thought he was talking about his Father you might note) might well have used ‘the name", and the writers used an euphemism. Note that "the name’ is not used AFAIK anywhere in the Bible. “Lord= _Adonai_” and 'gd= _Elohim_", and other euphemisms are always used. And of course- at the trial- they very likely spoke Hebrew, but maybe Aramaic (which is similar)- not Greek. Thus, the Greek used is kinda pointless. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962/104 "2004-09-20T11:48:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, you do realize the the writers of the Bible go to great lengths to come up with other phrases & terms that can be used instead of “the Name” (since I hope Zev will come back here and post, I am not going to risk offending him by spelling out the name, although it doesn’t bother me in the least. But if he has any preferences on this, in us posting, please Zev- let me know. Usually I don’t care, but since I invited you here and ask for your wisdom, I am going to try and be polite.) Actually, in the Bible, God’s name (the Tetragrammaton) is used quite frequently. It’s not used, however, in later works (such as the Talmud). In any event, just to add to the point, just stating the Tetragrammaton itself is not blasphemy either (although the phrase that is does contain the Tetragrammaton). > [@](#): > > And- the preists CAN use “the name”- they’re _preists_ . That’s the whole point. They can look upon the Ark, etc. Or is it just the High Preist? Zev? ;j Only the High Priest and only on Yom Kippur. > [@](#): > > It seems quite possible that the Preists used the term 'the blessed" whereas Jesus (who thought he was talking about his Father you might note) might well have used ‘the name", and the writers used an euphemism. Note that "the name’ is not used AFAIK anywhere in the Bible. “Lord= _Adonai_” and 'gd= _Elohim_", and other euphemisms are always used. When the Torah is read today in public or whenever the Tetragrammaton is come across and must be read aloud, the term “Ad-o- noy” is used in most cases, although “E-lo- him” is sometimes used. The same would have been done by the _kohanim_ in the Temple. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962/105 "2004-09-20T12:32:20Z")
One point that I just thought of: is it possible that the high priests were Sadducees? If so, then all the discussion about what the Talmud says about the trial would be moot, as the Sadducees rejected the oral law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-deal-with-various-jesus-didnt-really-die-on-the-cross-theories/263962.md?page=5)