# What's the difference between a cult and a religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571 "2001-01-24T16:36:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/21 "2001-01-24T21:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > The LDS, on the other hand, teaches that there are different levels of [salvation](http://www.midwestoutreach.org/journals/mormon_view.html), and that one may be saved by works. Well, if you want to be technical, the Catholic Church has taught that for a thousand years. Only the top level is called Heaven, and then there are varying degree of Hell (sometime, Purgatory). And they agree with Jesus and James and Paul-half-the-time regarding faith and works, although I’m sure they disagree with Mormon’s as to what those works are. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/22 "2001-01-24T21:58:32Z")
I’ve posted this before, poking fun at those “how to know a cult when you see one” web sites, for example this list entitled [Characteristics of a Destructive Cult](http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_whatisdescult.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\* > A cult is all about one person or small elite trying to control a larger group for their own ends. > \*\* Cecil, little Ed. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Characteristics of a Destructive Cult > [list] > [li]Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top.[/li][li]Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended…the leaders are self-appointed.[/li]\*\* Yep, that’s unca Cecil alright. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising.[/li]\*\* Sure, first you just read the column in the weekly. Then, at some point you check out the website. You post on the message board. Just once or twice a month, maybe. Then someone calls you a knee jerk reactionary and your are suddenly locked in a flame war. You lose weight, your friends wonder where you are but the modem ties up the phone… and it is all downhill from there > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]Isolation from society – not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation – the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) – the only valid source of feedback and information is the group[/li]\*\* Teeming Millions versus non-Teemers. God Teem me! > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]Use of mind control techniques …[/li] 1.Mileu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment > \*\* Da Mods. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2.Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the “principles” (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment) > \*\* Claims to deliver “the Straight Dope” > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3.Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group “norm”; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group’s controlling and manipulative influences > \*\* Fighting Ignorance since 1972, it is taking longer than we thought. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 4.Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one’s sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change > \*\* Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share. _ **Must you??** _ > [@](#): > > \*\* > 5.Sacred Science: The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology > \*\* Unca Cece knows all, sees all. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 6.Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings – the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way – it becomes a “group” word or phrase > \*\* Well, what does ‘dope’ mean to you? > [@](#): > > \*\* > 7.Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question – it is always “turned around” on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one’s experience to that “truth” the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one’s own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense > \*\* Sounds like the mailbag to me > [@](#): > > \*\* > 8.Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation – if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the “elite”, outsiders are “of the world”, “evil”, “unenlightened”, etc. > \*\* those still living in the “ignorance” the dope is “fighting” against I think that sums up my position on why The Straight Dope is a destructive cult. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/23 "2001-01-25T00:58:33Z")
Thanks for that one, JMull. That list is all true to my own experience (~shudder~). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/24 "2001-01-25T02:31:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Fighting Ignorance since 1972, it is taking longer than we thought. Was this error part of the joke? ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/25 "2001-01-25T03:44:15Z")
**Cult** : a virus consisting of spiritual beliefs which cannot be verified one way or another, which was designed to successfully infect human minds, and to propagate itself from one human mind to another. These viruses are used to promote particular codes of personal and social behaviour, and also to manipulate large numbers of people into granting privileges (such as wealth and power) to a small group of people. **Religion** : (flippant) what a cult wants to be when it grows up. (less flippant) what a cult is termed once it has infected sufficiently large numbers of people for those people to be able to demand and obtain legal recognition for their beliefs. (A ‘recognised religion’ can cut special tax deals for donations etc., a cult cannot). ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/26 "2001-01-25T12:36:31Z")
DoctorJ said: > [@](#): > > Your religion is a cult. My cult is a religion. This pretty well sums it all up. But that doesn’t mean I won’t add to it. 😉 Last year, I reviewed the book, _Mystics and Messiahs: Cults and New Religions in American History_, by Philip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies at Pennsylvania State University. I also interviewed Professor Jenkins. Here are a few excerpts from my review: \*He says the media and anti-cult groups, both secular and religious, play up the worst of the extremist groups and apply similar accusations to all religions they deem as “cults.” This has been going on, in one form or another, for centuries, sometimes getting to the point where the anti-cult panic was worse than the group labeled as a cult! As examples, he notes that Roman Catholicism was once deemed a cult by other Christians (an issue that came to the fore in the presidential primaries when George W. Bush spoke at Bob Jones University). Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Shakers, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, and others have all been called “cults” by other groups and had various slanders alleged against them. Indeed, many of the same charges that are leveled against cults today were leveled against these groups in the past. In some cases, even members of the groups formerly labeled as cults are using that term now to describe newcomers to the religious scene. So what are cults? Jenkins writes in his book: “In common parlance, cults are exotic religions that practice spiritual totalitarianism: members owe fanatical obedience to the group and to its charismatic leaders, who enforce their authority through mind-control techniques or brainwashing.” Also, cult members are separated from the rest of the world, often living apart from family and friends. But Jenkins thinks the word really means, “a small unpopular religious group.” In other words, if you don’t like the group, you call them a “cult.”\* (I can’t give the Web link here for the full article, because it’s at [Themestream.com](http://Themestream.com) . However, you may e-mail me for the link or go to the site and do a search.) ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/27 "2001-01-25T12:43:25Z")
The definition I heard was a religion has more people born into it than converts. A cult is the opposite. All religions start as cults, but if the beliefs stick and people pass them down to their children, they become religions. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/28 "2001-01-25T14:51:37Z")
Well, thank you Goboy, why aren’t you over in the Mormon thread helping us out? Tis true the Bible says :"Thou has said the truth,for there is One God, and there is none other than He."Deuteronomy 6:32. Mormons beleive their are three Gods and many more. I could go on and on but for naught. ---
**Author:** ![Jester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jester/32/8223_2.png) [@Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/29 "2001-01-25T15:34:13Z")
All I have to add is a quote by Mark Twain, I believe. Please correct me if I’m wrong. “A cult is a religion with no political power.” Think that about sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/30 "2001-01-25T18:58:17Z")
goboy, I didn’t say that my beliefs were entirely the same as other Christians. However, you’ll note that you did not contradict me. I do believe that it is only through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice that I can ever hope to be saved. Yes, I believe that real faith motivates one to action, and that one measure of faith is works (which is consistent with James chapter 2). Also, yes I believe that there are different degrees of heaven. However, it remains that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only-Begotten son of God who died for the sins of the world. That is what you claimed I don’t believe and what my church does not teach. However, that claim is incorrect. And with all due respect, I am the world’s best authority on what **I** believe. That belief is in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church. See [Article of Faith](http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1) #3 for instance. Also, > [@](#): > > “What are the fundamental principles of your religion?” > > [Joseph Smith answers] > The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. _Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Answers to Sundry Questions_. I’m not interested in hijacking the thread further, but I am very tired of people telling me what I believe, when it’s not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/31 "2001-01-25T20:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **emarkp** _ > > I am very tired of people telling me what I believe, when it’s not correct. Pffft - amateur. Trying being Unitarian Universalist - I was once told I worship trees. :rolleyes: (That’s in addition to being told I’m in a cult as well.) Esprix ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/32 "2001-01-25T20:58:29Z")
Esprix: Huh! No wonder your consdiered a tree worshipper, your around wood so often.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/33 "2001-01-25T21:41:09Z")
Just for the record : [What’s the difference between a church and a cult.](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2001, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/34 "2001-01-26T18:16:37Z")
Developing massive organizations, providing high levels of customer service, outmaneuvering the competition, creating brand names that are recognized in every household. Seems to me that the skills required to create a great business are the same as the ones required to create a great religion. Well, here’s some free business advice to some of those cult leaders out there that are aspiring to become the next Jesus, Moses, or Mohammad: 1. Make sure the organization can continue once you get “promoted to the head office”: There is a good reason Jesus didn’t spike the cool-aid at the Last Supper. 2. Don’t try to compete in the same markets as the “Coke” and “Pepsi” of religions: The Puritans did not try to start their religion in Rome, the went to the New World. The Mormons saw big growth opportunities in Utah, not California (saturated market). The Jehovah’s witnesses used direct marketing to become the L.L. Bean mail order catalogue of religions. 3. Focus on branding and trademarks: Everyone recognizes the Christian cross and the Jewish six pointed star. 4. 4P’s of marketing - Product, Placement, Price, Promotion While cults and religions offer similar products (salvation, reincarnation, etc), cults don’t grow into religions because A) The price is often too high (everything you own goes to the cult). B) They’re too secretive and don’t actively promote themselves. 5. Customer service: God had Moses lead the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt. The average mom & pop doomsday cult just can’t compete with that level of service. Remember, the difference between a cult and one of the Big 5 (Buddhism, Christianity, Hindu, Islam and Judaism) is Marketing, Marketing, Marketing 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/35 "2001-01-27T02:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by msmith537 \* > **Customer service:** > God had Moses lead the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt. The average mom & pop doomsday cult just can’t compete with that level of service._\* **ROFL!** Seriously, but not very so, I believe that a religion has many members, while a cult has few. How many? How few? Heck, I dunno. I just pointed that out so the rest of you could hash out the details. 😉 ~~Baloo ---
**Author:** ![RoboDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/36 "2001-01-28T00:57:45Z")
IMO, a cult is any religious group that: [ul] [li]directs its members to harm themselves or others, or to neglect their duties to others[/li][li]isolates itself from society[/li][li]exerts strict control over what its members think, say, or do[/li][li]is more concerned with keeping its members unconditionally loyal than with their well-being[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2001, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/37 "2001-01-28T01:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **Pffft - amateur. Trying being Unitarian Universalist - I was once told I worship trees. :rolleyes: (That’s in addition to being told I’m in a cult as well.)** That’s okay, **Esprix** , my mother asked me if the UUs were related to the Moonies… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/38 "2001-01-29T05:20:08Z")
If it involves tamborines and the singing of “Kumbaya, My Lord” it is a cult. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/39 "2001-01-29T15:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*If it involves tamborines and the singing of “Kumbaya, My Lord” it is a cult. \*\* I guess that makes the Cub Scouts a cult. We did that at Scout Day Camp when I was in the 3rd grade. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571/40 "2001-01-30T02:50:20Z")
I’ve always kind of wondered about those guys… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-cult-and-a-religion/51571.md?page=3)