# What's the difference between a religion and a cult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259 "2006-07-05T21:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/41 "2006-07-07T05:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That would include Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists, from what I’ve heard. Even though most of us think of those as “religions” when we think of them at all. [/QUOTE] You’ve heard wrong, at least about the Adventists. My grandparents were SDA and I spent several years of my chilhood attending Sabbath School. The biggest differences between the Adventists and most mainstream Protestant sects are: (1) the Adventists look forward to the Second Coming of Jesus (hence the name); (2) Vegetarianism is encouraged and widely practiced; and (3) they attend church on Saturday (the Sabbath) rather than Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/42 "2006-07-07T14:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] You’ve heard wrong, at least about the Adventists. My grandparents were SDA and I spent several years of my chilhood attending Sabbath School. The biggest differences between the Adventists and most mainstream Protestant sects are: (1) the Adventists look forward to the Second Coming of Jesus (hence the name); (2) Vegetarianism is encouraged and widely practiced; and (3) they attend church on Saturday (the Sabbath) rather than Sunday. [/QUOTE] Perhaps I’m confusing the two. I did know a former JW once – he converted to his wife’s faith when he got married; and after they both dropped out of the church, her parents would no longer – apparently were not allowed to – have anything to do with her. Anything at all. [Hitler came down hard on the Witnesses.](http://www.holocaust-trc.org/Jehovah.htm) I guess non-mainstream cults just didn’t fit into the society he was trying to build. ---
**Author:** ![Spezza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Spezza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spezza)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/43 "2006-07-07T20:26:51Z")
Stark and Finke give a pretty good definition of what constitutes a cult in their book _[Acts of Faith](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520222024/sr=8-5/qid=1152303488/ref=pd_bbs_5/103-7016158-3452643?ie=UTF8)_. Since I don’t have it handy, no quotes. But the gist of their definition is that a cult is a new religion/faith/practice, either introduced from outside the culture, invented from within the culture, or split off from an accepted religion within the culture. Any cult can then become establish as a “religion” if it gains sufficient membership, institutional legitimacy, or cultural acceptance. (I’ve definitely missed out on some details.) A comment on “brainwashing” in cults. It doesn’t exist. If it does, why do cults have such high turnover rates? Generally accepted statistics are that 9/10 cult joiners will dropout within a year or two. Also, just a FYI, those who join cults generally exhibit similar characteristics (see works by Lorne L. Dawson and/or Saul Levine for additional information). Briefly, typical joiners are: white, middle/upper class, well-educated, between the ages of 16-25. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/44 "2006-07-08T03:59:13Z")
A cult with a lot of people in it is called a “religion.” ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/45 "2006-07-08T09:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=Aeschines] A cult with a lot of people in it is called a “religion.” [/QUOTE] Where does ‘sect’ fit in here? It has slightly pejorative overtones but not as much as ‘cult’. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/46 "2006-07-08T10:58:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps I’m confusing the two. I did know a former JW once – he converted to his wife’s faith when he got married; and after they both dropped out of the church, her parents would no longer – apparently were not allowed to – have anything to do with her. Anything at all. While I’m pretty sure you’re right about establishing or keeping serious relationships with non-JWs, JWs are still professional and friendly at work/school and make the connections necessary to maximize their learning experience/job potential, with no reservations. Probably not likely to take the office out for beer, but I’ve had JW classmates in high school and college science classes; both were quite friendly and kept their lips sealed even in an environment where their personal views were considered laughable. One was my lab partner and had no problems studying with me outside of class–and quite extensively, I might add; we saved each others’ asses in that course. > [@Spezza](#): > > A comment on “brainwashing” in cults. It doesn’t exist. If it does, why do cults have such high turnover rates? Generally accepted statistics are that 9/10 cult joiners will dropout within a year or two. Well, the commonly held version of “brainwashing” where followers are somehow irresistably stuffed full of beliefs they don’t understand is probably far overblown, but I don’t think it’s at all a stretch to say that what most people call a “cult” works by feeding a specific set of unusually strong beliefs to young people starving for a sense of identity, an explanation of their universe and an understanding of their purpose, often with less than altruistic aims. ---
**Author:** ![Spezza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Spezza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spezza)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/47 "2006-07-08T14:31:03Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Well, the commonly held version of “brainwashing” where followers are somehow irresistably stuffed full of beliefs they don’t understand is probably far overblown, but I don’t think it’s at all a stretch to say that what most people call a “cult” works by feeding a specific set of unusually strong beliefs to young people starving for a sense of identity, an explanation of their universe and an understanding of their purpose, often with less than altruistic aims. [/QUOTE] Yes, I agree with you; but I don’t find that to be necessarily bad or uncommon. I mean, join the army, see what they try to do to your mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/48 "2006-07-08T14:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=jabiru] Where does ‘sect’ fit in here? It has slightly pejorative overtones but not as much as ‘cult’. [/QUOTE] “Sect” usually is used to mean a subset of a broader religious tradition, like Shi’ite Islam or Zen Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/49 "2006-07-08T14:52:12Z")
[QUOTE=Spezza] A comment on “brainwashing” in cults. It doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE] Well, the scientific community, specifically the American Psychological Association, has been going back and forth on that for some time. See [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing#Brainwashing_controversy_in_new_religious_movements_and_cults) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/50 "2006-07-08T15:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=jabiru] Where does ‘sect’ fit in here? It has slightly pejorative overtones but not as much as ‘cult’. [/QUOTE] Cults arise independently of other religious movements. Sects splinter off from already established movements. Neither kind of movement necessarily has to entail anything sinister or controlling. In the most technical sense, cults are just new or “deviant” movements (the PC term is “New religious Movements” or NRMs) with some kind of novel beliefs or practices. If the NRM is successful it can become an established Church (e.g. LDS). All religions start as NRMs or sects and the distinction is somewhat ambiguous. These movements often exist with some tension between themselves and the larger culture around them but they don’t have to. Sociologists, Rodney Stark and William Bainbridge further define NRM’s as requiring some kind of supernatural aspect in order to distinguish them from secular movements. They also define several models of how cults are formed. The kind with the charismatic leader is only one type (called the Psychopathological Model), but there are others. You can read about them [here](http://www.rouncefield.homestead.com/files/a_soc_rel_12.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/51 "2006-07-08T21:10:44Z")
> [@Spezza](#): > > Yes, I agree with you; but I don’t find that to be necessarily bad or uncommon. > > I mean, join the army, see what they try to do to your mind. I have (another branch, not the Army) and you’re certainly right. The difference, though, is that the Army pays _you_, extremely well in fact when you consider the benefits and free housing (compared to any other job an 18-year-old with no degree can get). And they’ll also teach you to be more self-confident and will raise your self-esteem and make you a more reliable worker. You have to sell your soul, but you get pretty nice dividends in return. (I couldn’t do it, I had to get out.) ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/52 "2006-07-08T22:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] “Sect” usually is used to mean a subset of a broader religious tradition, like Shi’ite Islam or Zen Buddhism. [/QUOTE] In Christianity, wouldn’t that be a denomination rather than a sect? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/53 "2006-07-08T23:07:49Z")
[QUOTE=jabiru] In Christianity, wouldn’t that be a denomination rather than a sect? [/QUOTE] There’s very little difference other than a perceived level of establishment and success. Sects are movements which are split or calved off from previous movements. rather than arising independently. The word really only denotes a mode of formation, not anything about content. You could call the entire Protestant movement a sect if you wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/54 "2006-07-08T23:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=jabiru] In Christianity, wouldn’t that be a denomination rather than a sect? [/QUOTE] So what would be a “sect” in Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/55 "2006-07-08T23:24:34Z")
The whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/56 "2006-07-08T23:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So what would be a “sect” in Christianity? [/QUOTE] The word would have the most utility in reference to movements which have most recently split off from some other denomination. The Branch Davidians were a sect. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/57 "2006-07-08T23:40:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The word would have the most utility in reference to movements which have most recently split off from some other denomination. The Branch Davidians were a sect. [/QUOTE] With plenty o’ sects! 🙂 (Well, at least for David Koresh . . .) ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/58 "2006-07-08T23:47:59Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Cults arise independently of other religious movements. Sects splinter off from already established movements. Neither kind of movement necessarily has to entail anything sinister or controlling. In the most technical sense, cults are just new or “deviant” movements (the PC term is “New religious Movements” or NRMs) with some kind of novel beliefs or practices. If the NRM is successful it can become an established Church (e.g. LDS). All religions start as NRMs or sects and the distinction is somewhat ambiguous. These movements often exist with some tension between themselves and the larger culture around them but they don’t have to. Sociologists, Rodney Stark and William Bainbridge further define NRM’s as requiring some kind of supernatural aspect in order to distinguish them from secular movements. They also define several models of how cults are formed. The kind with the charismatic leader is only one type (called the Psychopathological Model), but there are others. You can read about them [here](http://www.rouncefield.homestead.com/files/a_soc_rel_12.htm). [/QUOTE] Thanks for that. Since I’m not debating, merely seeking information, I’ll keep reading this thread but I won’t post again. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/59 "2006-07-09T03:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s the difference between a religion and a cult? [/QUOTE] Nothing [QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] I’ve always used the english word “cult” to describe a religious group that has several of the following characteristics: - encourages you to cut ties with friends and family - encourages you to hand over any financial assets to the organization - discourages any criticism of the group’s leader(s) - demands unquestioning obedience from the group’s leader(s) - worship services or creed are kept hidden or obfuscated from the general public [/QUOTE] Sounds like the republican party ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259/60 "2006-07-09T05:53:31Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] (In the last meaning, you often see it used on the SDMB by persons who condemn all religions and hope to express their contempt by using a word commonly accepted as pejorative.) [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] [Quote=BrainGlutton] What’s the difference between a religion and a cult? [/quote] Nothing [/QUOTE] _Quod Erat Demonstrandum (nunc Est)_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult/363259.md?page=4)