# What's the difference between "thee" and "thou"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773 "2009-11-24T14:57:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/1 "2009-11-24T14:57:16Z")
As far as I can tell, they both mean “you”. What are the rules about when you should use each one? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/2 "2009-11-24T15:03:53Z")
“Thou” is the nominative form, whereas “thee” is the accusative. It’s like the difference between “I” and “me”, or “he” and “him”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/3 "2009-11-24T15:05:22Z")
“Thou” is nominative, like “he” and “I” and “they.” “Thee” is accusative/objective, like “him” and “me” and “them.” Simple as that. Note that “thou” always takes the -st form of any verb that has one: \* I was, thou wast, he was, you were; I did, you did, he did, thou didst; I have, thou hast, he has, you have.\* Also, thou/thee has two genitive/possessive forms, _thy_ and _thine_, which match exactly _my_ and _mine_ in where they are used. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/4 "2009-11-24T15:05:25Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > “Thou” is the nominative form, whereas “thee” is the accusative. It’s like the difference between “I” and “me”, or “he” and “him”. Thou art correct: I commend thee! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/5 "2009-11-24T16:31:44Z")
It’s a difference that modern standard English no longer recognizes between nominative and accusative forms of the second-person singular. My understanding is that the th- forms were familiar forms (as in the difference between vous and tu in French), another difference that modern standard English no longer recognizes. The form “you” was concurrent with “thou” and “thee” but used to indicate the status of the addressed person was higher than the addresser’s. That’s why “thou” and “thee” were used by the Quakers for everyone, since in Quaker theology, judges and nobles and royals deserved no more respect than the beggar on the street, and the beggar on the street deserved no less respect than judges or nobles or royals. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/6 "2009-11-25T10:04:18Z")
BTW, _you_ was originally the accusative plural form. The original plural nominative was _ye_. ---
**Author:** ![chromaticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@chromaticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chromaticity)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/7 "2009-11-25T15:26:10Z")
Great, I never realized that I always wanted to ask this question! ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/8 "2009-11-25T15:52:03Z")
It’s still used in some parts of England, tha’ knows. Go up to Yorkshire and you’ll hear it all the time, I can tell thee. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/9 "2009-11-25T15:52:20Z")
Those dialects that preserve thou and thee (eg West Country Engand, the Quakers, etc) have lost any distinction between nominative and accusative. The Quakers, for instance, use _thee_ as subject where _thou_ would have been the correct form in the past. This characteristic was already being commented on in the mid-19th century, as evidenced by an article in Notes & Queries, c 1860, which I recall reading a couple of years ago. I’ll try to dig it up. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/10 "2009-11-25T15:58:19Z")
So… tell me if I’ve gotten it right in this paragraph: \*I hear thou are (art?) going to town tomorrow. Thy sister lives there, does’t she? Make sure to take thy jacket. Thou lost thy jacket? I’ll lend thee mine, if next time thou lend me thine. \* ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/11 "2009-11-25T16:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a difference that modern standard English no longer recognizes between nominative and accusative forms of the second-person singular. My understanding is that the th- forms were familiar forms (as in the difference between vous and tu in French), another difference that modern standard English no longer recognizes. The form “you” was concurrent with “thou” and “thee” but used to indicate the status of the addressed person was higher than the addresser’s. That’s why “thou” and “thee” were used by the Quakers for everyone, since in Quaker theology, judges and nobles and royals deserved no more respect than the beggar on the street, and the beggar on the street deserved no less respect than judges or nobles or royals. Ironically, a modern English speaker would probably think that someone using “thee” and “thou” was trying to be more formal, not less. I think this stems from the Bible: In the original Hebrew, in passages where God is addressing men, He uses the Hebrew familiar forms, much as one would within a family. The translators of the King James version correctly translated these into the English familiar forms, and so we have “Thou shalt not…” and so on. But nowadays, the only place most people see the “thou” forms is in the King James Bible, and incorrectly assume that, because it’s God, He must be using formal constructions. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/12 "2009-11-25T16:30:33Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > It’s still used in some parts of England, tha’ knows. > > Go up to Yorkshire and you’ll hear it all the time, I can tell thee. Not the last time I was in Yorkshire (about 4 years ago). However, I learned the distinction growing up in Leeds about 50 years ago, when a lot more people spoke proper Yorkshire. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/13 "2009-11-25T16:32:43Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So… tell me if I’ve gotten it right in this paragraph: > > \*I hear thou are (art?) going to town tomorrow. Thy sister lives there, does’t she? Make sure to take thy jacket. Thou lost thy jacket? I’ll lend thee mine, if next time thou lend me thine. \* It’s “thou art”, and “thou lendest” or “thou lend’st”. I think that those special verb forms helped to kill the word “thou”. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/14 "2009-11-25T16:41:17Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > BTW, _you_ was originally the accusative plural form. The original plural nominative was _ye_. IIRC, the reason why The and Thou were confounded into Ye and You was because of the “Olde English” letter thorn, a cursive y-looking letter representing the phonic sound “th”, which people misinterpereted as a regular y. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/15 "2009-11-25T17:46:49Z")
**Giles** try a few miles south of Leeds, especially in the former mining communities. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/16 "2009-11-25T18:07:30Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > IIRC, the reason why The and Thou were confounded into Ye and You was because of the “Olde English” letter thorn, a cursive y-looking letter representing the phonic sound “th”, which people misinterpereted as a regular y. Yip. It’s still seen in such cases as “[Ye Olde Archery Shoppe](http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/)”, which even includes he silent ‘e’ of yore. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/17 "2009-11-25T18:36:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yip. It’s still seen in such cases as “[Ye Olde Archery Shoppe](http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/)”, which even includes he silent ‘e’ of yore. Did anyone ever actually pronounce it /ji/? I’m assuming that’s a modern affectation. And re: Quakers, no one says thou anymore, at least not at any of the meetings I’ve attended. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/18 "2009-11-26T03:36:12Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Did anyone ever actually pronounce it /ji/? I’m assuming that’s a modern affectation. I do know that the ‘Y’ in ‘Ye’ is a mutated form of Þ, the thorn, a letter English has lost. The thorn, like the Ð, or eth, could represent either the voiced /th/ (as in ‘this’ and ‘that’) or the voiceless /th/ (as in ‘thin’ and ‘three’). (Voiced, here, means that the tongue vibrates against the back of the upper front teeth, whereas voiceless means it does not.) (Yes, two letters that could each make the same pair of sounds. English spelling used to be just that much weirder.) Therefore, yes, ‘Ye’ was pronounced ‘The’ originally, but I don’t know when the mispronunciation became popular, or whether it would count as a ‘modern’ mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/19 "2009-11-26T04:17:04Z")
Ye as tje vocative and nominative of you in Middle and Early Modern English was pronounced /ji/ (“Yee”). The letter used for the form of “the” written “ye” (and pronounced “the”) was _wen_, which rsembled _thorn_ but with the rightward extension angular rather than round. Instead of a smooth curve coming out from the upright, visualize it with two 45-degree angles coming out 1/4 and 3/4 of the way along the upright, and joining each other at the halfway point out to the right of the upright. or imagine a vertical line cutting a diamond shape in half, with the left half then erased. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773/20 "2009-11-26T04:20:14Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So… tell me if I’ve gotten it right in this paragraph: > > \*I hear thou are (art?) going to town tomorrow. Thy sister lives there, does’t she? Make sure to take thy jacket. Thou lost thy jacket? I’ll lend thee mine, if next time thou lend me thine. \* Looks on target, with the emendations **Giles** suggests – definitely “thou art” and probably “lendest” or dialectally “lend’st”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-difference-between-thee-and-thou/518773.md?page=2)