# What's the Dope on Working for Non-Profits?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 1, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678 "2003-07-01T23:36:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/1 "2003-07-01T23:36:59Z")
In keeping with the forum guidelines, I’d like to keep this as more of a factual question than an opinion piece. But at the same time, I put a high value on anecdotal evidence, so I’d like to hear any personal stories you have as well.
My girlfriend is working a potential temp-to-hire gig at a nonprofit organization in the medical field–oncology, I believe. I don’t know any other details yet, and we’d rather root out the details of the specific organization ourselves.
I’ve been tasked with assembling the research tools needed to learn more about nonprofit organizations in general and one in particular. My questions, as usual, are several.
[ul][1] I’ve heard that nonprofit organizations must publicly disclose the salaries and benefits they offer their employees. Is this true? If it is, how do I acquire this information?
[2] If it isn’t true, how do I acquire this information anyway? (Legally, of course.)
[3] Is there a ratings system for nonprofit organizations? Like a meta-nonprofit funded by nonprofits to monitor and rate nonprofits, or perhaps a federal oversight body?
[4] How can I check this organization for fraudulent or otherwise unseemly behavior?[/ul]
My better half doesn’t want to mess around anymore–she’s looking for a career path, and she’s had a less-than-rewarding stint with a public… um, broadcasting system, so she doesn’t want to repeat the experience. We’d like to get a better idea of this organization’s overall size, influence, reputation, pay scale, and long-term viability. I personally would like to hear some stories, both good and bad, about working for nonprofit companies in the United States in general, because I think it may help in assembling the overall picture.
As always, thank you for your answers in advance, and have a nice day.
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### Author:  [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/2 "2003-07-02T03:03:52Z")
Tax returns for 501©(3) organizations are public record. You can look them up on the Web, although I cannot remember the name of the site. I can get the link tomorrow at work. They will list the salaries paid to officers, but I’m not sure if they list each individual worker - might be a combined total.
Remember that very often the name of the organization will NOT be the same name as the organization whose name is on the return. You might have to search around a bit to find the one you’re looking for.
The other questions I can’t help you with.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/3 "2003-07-02T03:38:22Z")
The Better Business Bureau maintains their lists of charities at [give.org](http://www.give.org/)
They maintain fairly detailed reports on the charities they keep track of, but their list is by no means complete and mostly consists of the largest national charities. Most of the information they compile is from the public tax records, which you can track down yourself if the charity in question is not listed.
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### Author:  [@Cillasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cillasi)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/4 "2003-07-02T04:52:23Z")
501©(3) corps must break down their income and expenses in novel ways. They must detail how much they receive and from where (e.g., donations, grants) and where the money goes (e.g., salaries, advertising, operations).
While high-ranking officer salaries may be reported separately, the rank-and-file wages are reported lump-sum along with the cost of employee benefit plans, etc.
Not-for-profit organizations must file annual reports, similar to publicly traded corporations. The primary thing to look for is what percentage of income goes where.
There were some scandals several years back among some of the “save-the-children” type organizations where only a very small percentage of donations were spent on the organization’s objective. The lion’s share was spent on officers’ salaries, advertising costs, and administrative “overhead.” It’s not that the organizations were doing anything illegal, but the public was totally unaware of how much of their dollar was going toward the “exempt activities” and how much was going toward overhead.
The oversight authority is the IRS. [http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96099,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96099,00.html)
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### Author:  [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/5 "2003-07-02T05:45:59Z")
You can search [here](http://www.guidestar.org/search/index.jsp).
Look for a form 990, that’s a tax form/finacial disclosure form.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/6 "2003-07-02T10:40:41Z")
I’ve worked for non-profits most of my life:
There is no requirement that that individual salariea are reported.
There is no meta-foundation overseeing them.
They have to publish financial disclosure reports, so her research can start there.
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/7 "2003-07-02T11:58:11Z")
Remember, too, that not all ‘non-profits’ are charities.
Sofa, as I recall you’re in DC, right? Many, **many** of the ‘non-profits’ in the area are industry associations and trade groups.
I once worked for one of the larger one’s (The American Hotel and Lodging Association) and while we were technically ‘non-profit’ we made a fortune. It paid well and it’s a great career track (the association game) but pretty much only in the Nation’s Capital[sup]TM[/sup].
Usually good benefits, good hours and good pay. But you have to be prepared to completely subordinate your own politics to the ‘good of the industry’.
In my case it meant my magazine ran articles praising the good of paying minimum wage to housekeeping staff and suchlike.
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/8 "2003-07-02T12:02:06Z")
Some helpful links:
[American Society of Association Executives](http://www.asaenet.org/)
[Non-Profit Mailers Assn](http://www.nonprofitmailers.org)
I know the guy who runs the last one (we’re in a fantasy baseball league together) if you have any questions.
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### Author:  [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/9 "2003-07-02T12:10:56Z")
I thought this might be helpful, just in case. There are nonprofits and there are not-for-profits; that is, both terms are used. Just to alleviate potential confusion, here are definitions for them:
> [@](#):
>
> Those two terms, actually spelled nonprofit and not-for-profit, refer to the same type of organization: one formed for a public or charitable purpose, a religious purpose, or as a mutual benefit corporation under state law, and qualifying for (in most cases) a federal tax exemption under a subsection of 501© of the Internal Revenue Code.
>
> Both terms are used in the field. The second term (not-for-profit) is not as common, but is preferred by some people because it indicates more clearly that this type of organization is not opposed to making - or forbidden to make - a profit, but that its mission is not oriented toward making a profit. In other words, a nonprofit/not-for-profit organization is not an organization run “FOR profit,” but it may operate activities which generate revenues or profits that go back into the organization and are used to further its mission.
[http://www.lapiana.org/resources/discussion/messages/77.html](http://www.lapiana.org/resources/discussion/messages/77.html)
A not-for-profit (I work for one) isn’t _not_ permitted to make a profit, but its goal isn’t oriented toward making one.
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### Author:  [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/10 "2003-07-02T16:39:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Boyo Jim \*
> \*\*There is no requirement that that individual salariea are reported.
> There is no meta-foundation overseeing them.
> They have to publish financial disclosure reports, so her research can start there. \*\*
I’m sorry to nitpick. This is partially inaccurate, to an extent.
If the not-for-profit is tax-exempt (not all of them are), then its 990s (tax returns, not financial statements per se), which must report the individual salaries of the top 5 earners, are public. (It is correct that they are not required to list salaries/scales for most employees.) **Forbin** ’s link is the best available.
Not-for-profits are overseen by the state in which they are incorporated. Both the Secretary of State and the State Attorney General have some say in what entities may qualify for or lose nfp status.
Larger nfps, just like larger for-profits, are likely to have websites. They may, but generally are not required to, post their financial statements, just as any other company might–there are a number of constituencies (donors, lenders, regulators) which may insist (practically) that they do so. If they don’t release full financial statements, they may still have an annual report showing summary figures (often glossy and used in their fundraising drives).
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### Author:  [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/11 "2003-07-02T17:03:33Z")
Forbin provided the tax-return link I was supposed to come back and give you - sorry! I forgot to do it earlier.
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### Author:  [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/12 "2003-07-02T17:34:29Z")
Thank all of you very much for your responses. I think this will get us a long way toward figuring out whether these guys are on the level.
**Jonathan Chance** nailed it on the head. This is an industry association we’re looking into. I don’t know if that makes a huge difference or not, but just in case there it is.
Since it appears as if I’m not going to be able to tack down general employee salary ranges, can anyone tell me if there is a significant difference in pay in similar positions between for-profit and non-profit (association) organizations? I get the idea that pay and benefits should be slightly better, but I don’t know that for certain.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/13 "2003-07-02T21:22:59Z")
In my experience, the pay is lower. Other benefits are substantially different, especially how retirement funds work. No more 401K, there’s a different set of programs the NFPs participant. I don’t know enough to say which is better.
Also, in my experience, at NFPs the workplace is less volatile than in the private sector. Much less chance of layoff or involuntary transfer.
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### Author:  [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/14 "2003-07-02T21:25:00Z")
Our not-for-profit offers TIAA/CREF instead of 401(k).
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/15 "2003-07-03T00:13:45Z")
Yeah TIAA/CREF is astonishingly good.
In my experience pay is somewhat lower but benefits and hours are better. Especially if it’s one of the larger ones.
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### Author:  [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-dope-on-working-for-non-profits/185678/16 "2003-07-03T01:24:22Z")
If it is a large, or well known, association, you might find some data on common salaries, or averages, in studies done of similar groups. Look also in the archives of the Chronicle of Philanthropy on salaries. The comparison between for and nonprofits is generally less pay in nonprofits (of course), but it is hard to make generalizations when it comes to large trade associations. Afterall, they are not the same as Mother Teresa type nonprofits. 🙂
If you can not find recent tax information on the guidestar website, nonprofits are now required to send you thisr information if you send a request letter. So get a friend that will never be connected to them or meet the co-workers to send a request. They have 30 business days, or something, to respond.