# What's the earliest independently verifiable event in the Bible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 29, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974 "2007-03-29T14:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/1 "2007-03-29T14:38:02Z")
What I’m looking for here is not independent confirmation that Episode X happened exactly the way it was described in the Bible. I just want general agreement, from archeological or other sources, that an event described in the Bible really happened, at roughly the time and in roughly the way suggested by the Bible. What’s the earliest? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/2 "2007-03-29T14:58:40Z")
If the OP is asking for earliest event that can be assumed to have happened, even if not precisely as explained in The Bible, I’m going with the creation of the Universe, which I assume must have happened. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/3 "2007-03-29T15:09:04Z")
I don’t know if it’s the earliest item for which we have independent corroboration, but the king Jeho from the ninth century was depicted on an Assyrian stele: > **[Jehu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehu)** > > Jehu (Hebrew: יֵהוּא, romanized: Yēhūʾ, meaning "Yahu is He"; Akkadian: 𒅀𒌑𒀀 Ya'úa \[ia-ú-a\]; Latin: Iehu) was the tenth king of the northern Kingdom of Israel since Jeroboam I, noted for exterminating the house of Ahab. He was the son of Jehoshaphat, grandson of Nimshi, and possibly great-grandson of Omri, although the latter notion is not supported by the biblical text. His reign lasted 28 years. > William F. Albright has dated Jehu's reign to 842–815 BCE, while E. R. Thiele offers the dates 841–8... He’s the only Jewish king we have a depiction of. 9th Century B.C., confirming his existence , as in Kings, and his visit to Assyria. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/4 "2007-03-29T15:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] If the OP is asking for earliest event that can be assumed to have happened, even if not precisely as explained in The Bible, I’m going with the creation of the Universe, which I assume must have happened. [/QUOTE] It probably always existed. Something out of nothing, and all that jazz. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/5 "2007-03-29T15:28:51Z")
The earliest verifiable things would just be names of kings (like Ramesses in Egypt). I think that the first really verifiable Biblical king of Judah is Omri (9th Century BCE), but the existence of a “House of David” can be arguably inferred from the Tel Dan inscription. As for actual historical _events_, as opposed to just names, I would venture a guess that it might be the construction of [Hezekiah’s tunnel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezekiah_tunnel) (701 BCE). [QUOTE=Zeldar] If the OP is asking for earliest event that can be assumed to have happened, even if not precisely as explained in The Bible, I’m going with the creation of the Universe, which I assume must have happened. [/QUOTE] What is your evidence that the universe was “created?” ---
**Author:** ![Zahava424](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/76d3ee/32.png) [@Zahava424](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zahava424)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/6 "2007-03-29T15:29:43Z")
According to Dr. Gerald Schroeder, a physicist who has taught at MIT and Hebrew University and whose claim to fame is primarily the book “Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible,” Tuval-Cain, who is the first person to be described in the Bible as a metalworker (Genesis 4:22), coincides historically with the Bronze Age. I haven’t done the math; I’m just relaying Dr. Schroeder’s conclusions, which are laid out in detail in the book. Primarily, his focus is the age of the Universe. (His theory is laid out [here](http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp).) I don’t pretend to have one-thousandth of the scientific knowledge necessary to say anything intelligent about the truth or untruth his arguments, and I don’t know what the scientific community thinks of them. It is worth noting, though, that he makes this particular point about the Bronze Age not to prove the Biblical account, but to challenge one of the more dismissive attempts that have been made to support young-earth creationism; namely, that everything was aged by the flood in Noah’s time, and so all evidence we have today indicates an older earth than is really the case. His point is that Tuval-Cain preceded the flood, and if his dates work out, then it can’t simply be argued that the flood aged the evidence of everything that had come before it. So this specific point is certainly not coming from a cheap attempt to reconcile science to the Bible; that’s what he’s combatting. Of course, all this requires you to accept his figures of biblical generations, and I’m far too lazy to actually check myself. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/7 "2007-03-29T15:34:09Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What is your evidence that the universe was “created?” [/QUOTE] There’s a theory to the effect of a Big Bang which suggests a creation of sorts. If you’re asking if I actually saw it myself, the answer is “no” but I did say that I assumed it happened. If you’re assuming it didn’t I guess that makes this an argument without much substance, and more in the realm of beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/8 "2007-03-29T15:38:46Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I don’t know if it’s the earliest item for which we have independent corroboration, but the king Jeho from the ninth century was depicted on an Assyrian stele: > **[Jehu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehu)** > > Jehu (/ˈdʒiːhuː/; Hebrew: יֵהוּא, romanized: Yēhūʾ, meaning "Yah is He"; Neo-Assyrian Akkadian: 𒅀𒌑𒀀, romanized: Yaua; Latin: Iehu) was the tenth king of the northern Kingdom of Israel since Jeroboam I, noted for exterminating the house of Ahab. He was the son of Jehoshaphat, grandson of Nimshi, and possibly great-grandson of Omri, although the latter notion is not supported by the biblical text. His reign lasted 28 years. William F. Albright has dated Jehu's reign to 842–815 BCE, while E. R. Thie... He’s the only Jewish king we have a depiction of. 9th Century B.C., confirming his existence , as in Kings, and his visit to Assyria. [/QUOTE] Close, but Omri, who preceded Jehu by about 30 years, is found on the [Meshe Stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_stele) (c. 850 BCE). It’s possible there may be an earlier verifiable Judahite/Israelite king, but Omri is the earliest I know I can cite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/9 "2007-03-29T15:41:29Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] There’s a theory to the effect of a Big Bang which suggests a creation of sorts. If you’re asking if I actually saw it myself, the answer is “no” but I did say that I assumed it happened. If you’re assuming it didn’t I guess that makes this an argument without much substance, and more in the realm of beliefs. [/QUOTE] What I meant was that there is no evidence the beginning of the universe was a conscious act of “creation” by a “creator.” I would not call the beginning of the universe _per se_ a verifiable Biblical event any more than the existence of the moon. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/10 "2007-03-29T15:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Close, but Omri, who preceded Jehu by about 30 years, is found on the Meshe Stele (c. 850 BCE). Neat! I hadn’t heard of that. But Jehu still got his picture first (and only, by a contemporary). ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/11 "2007-03-29T15:50:50Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What I meant was that there is no evidence the beginning of the universe was a conscious act of “creation” by a “creator.” I would not call the beginning of the universe _per se_ a verifiable Biblical event any more than the existence of the moon. [/QUOTE] If it makes you feel better, I can reword my original remark to say “the Universe came to be” which appears to have at least two versions of how it actually happened. My point (minus the religious overtones) is that I’m assuming this would be the earliest thing mentioned in The Bible which has independent corroboration. But if you’re wanting to suggest that the Universe didn’t come into being, then I think we need to pursue that issue elsewhere. > [@](#): > > If the OP is asking for earliest event that can be assumed to have happened, even if not precisely as explained in The Bible, I’m going with the creation of the Universe, which I assume must have happened. Substitute the feel-good alternative to “creation of the Universe” with something that implies that it “came into being.” If you can point to something earlier than this, I’m really curious about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/12 "2007-03-29T15:58:57Z")
**Zeldar** , can I quote from my OP? “I just want general agreement, from archeological or other sources, that an event described in the Bible really happened, **at roughly the time and in roughly the way suggested by the Bible**.” **Cal** , **Diogenes** , thanks – that’s what I’m looking for. **Zahava** ’s contribution is also interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/13 "2007-03-29T16:00:22Z")
The mere observation that the universe “came to be” is not confirmation of a Biblical event. The Genesis stories were not written to inform people that the universe existed, but gave an explanation as to _how_, and no part of that explanation corresponds to literal, historical reality. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/14 "2007-03-29T16:00:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] **Zeldar** , can I quote from my OP? “I just want general agreement, from archeological or other sources, that an event described in the Bible really happened, **at roughly the time and in roughly the way suggested by the Bible**.” **Cal** , **Diogenes** , thanks – that’s what I’m looking for. **Zahava** ’s contribution is also interesting. [/QUOTE] I understand. Sorry for the sidetrack. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/15 "2007-03-29T16:09:40Z")
Historical figure: Omri, with “honorable mention” to Jehu, as noted above. The term “Bet’ Dauyd” (House of David) occurs regularly (and I believe starting after the Omri/Jehu records), but with reference to the _descendants_ of David, not of him as a historical personage. (A major “maybe”: The “War of the Nine Kings” mentioned in Genesis 14 references two men who _may_ be independently historical: “Amraphel King of Shinar” (possibly Hammurabi) and “Chedorlaomer King of Elam” (debatable who’s being referenced IIRC) – but these equations of names are looked at **very** skeptically by AME/Biblical scholarship. The war itself has no independent evidence.) Event: The expansionist activities of Assyria, culminating in the conquering of the Northern Kingdom. I think there are Assyrian records of earlier attacks than the final conquest which are mentioned in the Bible, but don’t have specifics. One cannot reliably match any particular Pharaoh with the “Pharaoh King of Egypt” who pops up repeatedly in Scripture until Psamtik and Necho, much later than the Assyrian figures. Whatever the historical events behind the story of the Exodus, there was no doubt an Egyptian ruler at the time, but who he was and what he did cannot be independently corroborated. AFAIK there is **no** historical evidence outside Exodus for the death of a ruling Pharaoh by drowning in a campaign against Hebrews, and quite a bit of evidence that indicates it didn’t happen to any pharaoh during the likely period for the Exodus. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/16 "2007-03-29T17:07:19Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The earliest verifiable things would just be names of kings (like Ramesses in Egypt). [/QUOTE] Although the Pharoah mentioned in the Bible is widely believed to be Ramses II (alternate spelling), the Bible refers only to the Pharoah and does not name him. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/17 "2007-03-29T17:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] One cannot reliably match any particular Pharaoh with the “Pharaoh King of Egypt” who pops up repeatedly in Scripture until Psamtik and Necho, much later than the Assyrian figures. Whatever the historical events behind the story of the Exodus, there was no doubt an Egyptian ruler at the time, but who he was and what he did cannot be independently corroborated. AFAIK there is **no** historical evidence outside Exodus for the death of a ruling Pharaoh by drowning in a campaign against Hebrews, and quite a bit of evidence that indicates it didn’t happen to any pharaoh during the likely period for the Exodus. [/QUOTE] Can _anything_ from Exodus be independently verified? Egyptians having a community of Jewish slaves? a Jewish migration out of Egypt to Israel? an invasion of Palestine by Jewish people? Destruction of Jerico and other Palestinian cities? (not in Exodous, I know) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/18 "2007-03-29T17:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] Although the Pharoah mentioned in the Bible is widely believed to be Ramses II (alternate spelling), the Bible refers only to the Pharoah and does not name him. [/QUOTE] True but it does refer to him indirectly by saying that the Israelites worked on building the City Of Ramesses (Ex. 1:11). That city was built by Ramesses II and is the reason he is traditionally identified as the Pharaoh of the Exodus (in reality, that Pharaoh died of old age (you can see his mummy [here](http://www.odysseyadventures.ca/articles/ramesses/mummy-collage.jpg)). He wasn’t the Pharaoh of the Exodus but his name does technically appear in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/19 "2007-03-29T18:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Egyptians having a community of Jewish slaves? a Jewish migration out of Egypt to Israel? an invasion of Palestine by Jewish people? Destruction of Jerico and other Palestinian cities? (not in Exodous, I know) [/QUOTE] There is plenty of archeaological evidence for the Egyptians keeping many slaves from the area of and the peoples of the “Promised Land”. Of course, no one referred to them as Isrealites or Jews. Certainly the Jews took over Palestine, and there was violence involved. How long it took and what form it took we aren’t sure. Jericho was destroyed several times. However, since we really don’t know when the proto-Isrealites “invaded” that area, we can’t pin any of these attacks to Joshua. In fact, during the “best guess” time, it would appear Jericho has been destroyed some time previously leaving nothing much more than scattered peoples living in the ruins. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974/20 "2007-03-29T18:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Can _anything_ from Exodus be independently verified? Egyptians having a community of Jewish slaves? a Jewish migration out of Egypt to Israel? an invasion of Palestine by Jewish people? Destruction of Jerico and other Palestinian cities? (not in Exodous, I know) [/QUOTE] It certainly looks that way. I guess we haven’t had a [Bible Unearthed](http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/Finkelstein_Silberman022001.htm) link for awhile. There is no archaeological confirmation for the presence or enslavement of israelites in Egypt, for a migration out, for a sojourn in Egypt or for a conquest of Canaan. As a matter of fact, the Israelites do not even appear to have emerged yet as a distinct cultural group from the Canaanites during the alleged period of slavery. The Exodus story was probably based on the Hyksos expulsion. The Hyksos were Semitic Canaanites but were not Israelites, and they were occupiers and rulers, not slaves. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-independently-verifiable-event-in-the-bible/397974.md?page=2)