# What's the earliest song with lyrics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450 "2024-05-12T16:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/1 "2024-05-12T16:49:20Z")
Seems to me like lyrics are a (relatively) modern part of music. I’m curious what is the oldest known song with lyrics? Do we know if the oral tradition of storytelling often involved music? Was there ever a time in human history before we put words to music? If so, do we have any hints as to what changed? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/2 "2024-05-12T16:56:46Z")
There is a [music critic in Substack I like to read](https://www.honest-broker.com/p/why-do-heroes-always-have-theme-songs?utm_source=publication-search) who claims that heroes always had theme songs. With lyrics. So the answer to your question would be: No one knows because this song is lost in the depths of pre-history. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/3 "2024-05-12T16:56:58Z")
Greek hymns go back to the 7th century B.C. and I’d assume they weren’t the first. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/4 "2024-05-12T18:35:44Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > they weren’t the first. Perhaps some of the psalms in the Book of Psalms are even older? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/5 "2024-05-12T19:18:00Z")
[Mi Chamocha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_Sea) (the Song of the Sea) from the Book of Exodus is dated between the 13th and 5th centuries BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/6 "2024-05-12T19:23:01Z")
The oldest surviving complete song is [Seikilos epitaph - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikilos_epitaph) . ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/7 "2024-05-12T19:25:39Z")
The Iliad and Odyssey we’re probably sung rather than recited as there is evidence of musical accompaniment. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/8 "2024-05-12T19:36:38Z")
While not as complete as the Seikilos epitaph, some of the [Hurrian Hymns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs) are _near_-complete, and are definitely songs with music and lyrics, and much older than the epitaph. Here’s [one loose interpretation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8tfBLvlN98) of h.6, the Hymn to Nikkal. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Do we know if the oral tradition of storytelling often involved music? Almost certainly. For one thing, melody acts as a mnemonic aid. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Was there ever a time in human history before we put words to music? Doubtful. Chimps have particular vocalizations that accompany their rain and fire dances, so the combo probably predates modern humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/9 "2024-05-12T19:45:25Z")
Wait - chimps have rain and fire dances? Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/10 "2024-05-13T05:20:26Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Seems to me like lyrics are a (relatively) modern part of music. I’m curious what is the oldest known song with lyrics? Do we know if the oral tradition of storytelling often involved music? Was there ever a time in human history before we put words to music? If so, do we have any hints as to what changed? I think your premise is wrong - music _without_ lyrics is a modern invention, from no earlier than the 16th Century. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/11 "2024-05-13T05:31:29Z")
That’s definitely not true either - instrumental dance music was a thing, and definitely so in the Middle Ages. We have many art pieces that document this, as well as the actual music. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/12 "2024-05-13T05:34:26Z")
But was music actually written without lyrics, or did musicians just sometimes play instrumental versions of songs? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/13 "2024-05-13T05:46:13Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Seems to me like lyrics are a (relatively) modern part of music. I would have thought the opposite. Singing is one of the most universal forms of music. No accompaniment needed. Wrapping a tune around words is a natural thing to do. Thus any question of the earliest is lost in the mists of time. But a lullaby might be a good bet. Music for dance is also something that is lost into pre-history. The rhythmic nature of words and of dance throw a long shadow throughout the history of music. Maybe it is going to come down to when we acquired language versus a sense of melody. The two are likely not independent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/14 "2024-05-13T06:37:06Z")
Hard to say - we do know many, probably most, dances were accompanied by singing (usually by the dancers), but others, not. One would think if they had lyrics, this would be mentioned. Wiki does [say](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_music#Genres) > In the late middle ages, some purely instrumental music also began to be notated, though this remained rare. Dance music makes up most of the surviving instrumental music, and includes types such as the [estampie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estampie), [ductia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductia), and nota. The estampie, in particular, is noted to be found in both vocal and instrumental forms (that is, separate compositions in those forms). Note that it’s a contemporary music theorist making these distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/15 "2024-05-13T07:23:41Z")
Music, including singing and instrumental, seems to a universal in all human societies. Banging a stick on a log, clapping, or singing as you forage together or to your child, one before the other seems improbable. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/16 "2024-05-13T11:01:15Z")
I recall reading in Ripley’s Believe it or not that the “Shadouf Song” is the oldest existing song. I’m not sure about that (sometimes the answer is “or not”), or what evidence supports any existing song siung while using the water-conveying device as the original, oldest song. But some people claim that this was listed in the Guiness book of records as “oldest song” > [@](#): > > ## Shadoof song[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shadoof&action=edit§ion=1)] > > I read somewhere that Egyptians have a traditional song or chant for using the shadoof, and that it is supposed to be the oldest known song. If anyone else has more information or a source, adding it to this article would be useful. Unless the song needs its own article, or one already exists. (A sound file would be great too!) [Lusanaherandraton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lusanaherandraton) ([talk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lusanaherandraton)) 10:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[[reply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shadoof)] > > Shaduf song-RE > > When I was in Egypt, I also heard of this shaduf song. Also, When I was walking past a group of ladies gathered around a shaduf they were singing a song. is it possible that this is the shaduf song? also, i have a recording. if anyone knows an arabic speaker, could you please post on this page, as i will have it on my watchlist. if anyone is reading this that has already contributed(especially the writer of the original article of the song) could you please contact me on my user talk. mrmeh 06:31, 4 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding [unsigned](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signatures) comment added by [Jake happe (AKA mrmeh)](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Jake_happe_(AKA_mrmeh)&action=edit&redlink=1) ([talk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jake_happe_(AKA_mrmeh)) • [contribs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jake_happe_(AKA_mrmeh))) > > The Shaduf chant is (or at least was) listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the “world’s oldest known song”. Oddly, I can’t find any detailed information about the chant online - much less any audio or video recordings. [Muzilon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Muzilon) ([talk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Muzilon)) 02:58, 25 September 2021 (UTC) > **[Talk:Shadoof](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shadoof)** > > We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have. > To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates? > A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source,... ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/17 "2024-05-13T14:49:11Z")
[Thag Simmons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagomizer) performed _Stegosaurus Blues_ approximately 150 million years ago. Unfortunately, Thag never had the chance to write the lyrics down. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/18 "2024-05-13T15:00:47Z")
Conclusive evidence from Walt Disney Studios… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/g5AILKzluEA/maxresdefault.jpg "The Cavemen Sing Toot, Whistle, Plunk and Boom") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5AILKzluEA) ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/19 "2024-05-13T15:02:23Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > [Thag Simmons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagomizer) performed _Stegosaurus Blues_ approximately 150 million years ago. Unfortunately, Thag never had the chance to write the lyrics down. [The Beau Brummelstones](https://flintstones.fandom.com/wiki/The_Beau_Brummelstones#:~:text=The%20Beau%20Brummelstones%20are%20a,the%20original%20series%2C%20The%20Flintstones.) covered that song about 25 million years later. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450/20 "2024-05-13T15:03:38Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Conclusive evidence from Walt Disney Studios… I had this on a 45 RPM yellow plastic record as a kid – talk about prehistoric! > [@](#): > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv95rP8KGoA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv95rP8KGoA) I didn’t learn it was from a cartoon until decades later. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-earliest-song-with-lyrics/1001450.md?page=2)